VaricamLT: Varicam LT, Scarlet-W or something else?

M

Milan O.

Well-known member
First of all I want to thank everyone who has contributed with information about the Varicam 35 and LT here on the forum. I've read all the posts.
I would also like to apologize in advance if I don't express myself in the best possible way, English is not my first language, and for this very long post.

To the subject:
I'm considering buying a new camera. I've had the Sony FS700 since 2012 (later in combination with the O7Q) and it has served me well, although it has some quirks and is cumbersome to use in some situations. I mostly do corporate stuff and also some low budget Internet ads, but I'd like to try to raise the bar a little regarding the image quality and eventually also be able to do productions with a higher budget.

At first I considered the Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4.6K since it was supposed to have a global shutter and it seemed to be a promising camera. I didn't pre-order it since I've been doing this long enough to learn that it's better to wait until the product is released to see how it'll actually perform. As many of you probably know the Ursa Mini 4.6K has issues with the sensor and QC. Although I really like some of the images I've seen from it, I can't rely on something that might stop working for some reason or just has a crappy sensor. Of course the risk is always there witth any camera, but I like to minimize it.

So I looked at the FS7 and C300 mk II, and they both have some advantages compared to my current camera. The question is: do they justify the additonal cost?
Maybe if the C300 mk II could record 4K internally at 50/60p or could record better footage in HFR with lower resolution, or the FS7 didn't need that awkward add-on to record ProRes and raw, I would probably go for one of those (since they actually fit my budget better).

I also looked at the Red Scarlet-W. At first I considered it to be too expensive for me. Now I can actually afford it but there's always other stuff one might need also, so I really want to buy the right thing and not regret it. To sell something used in that price range here in Sweden is much more difficult, since the market is really small.

I remembered the Varicam LT, started reading about it and watching footage, and liked some of it, although there doesn't seem to be so much out there.
Here in Sweden the Alexa is always prefered for ads, but I can't afford any Arri camera, nor do I have the budget to rent them just to learn how to use them. For me (I believe) it's more realistic to buy a good camera which I can learn to use very well, even if it's not on par with any of the Arri's.

The Varicam LT is more bulky than the Scarlet-W (I haven't seen either of them in real life, but it seems so) but that necessarily isn't bad for me since I also want to use the camera on my stabilizing system, which is handling a bit higher weights better than lower ones. Yes, I know I can add weights but that won't happen in reality, I know myself. Even though the Varicam LT might not be ideal for having on the shoulder (lack of controls), I have a feeling it's better for that kind of work than the Scarlet-W, because of it's shape and ability to move that control panel. On the other hand the Scarlet-W seems to be able to be used handheld for easier low-angle shots (I do a lot of work with childrenwear, which in itself is quite funny since I'm not overly fond of kids, but hey... it's a job) but that can also be worked around, I guess, and I'll do other jobs as well. What I like about the Varicam LT is that it seems to have good colour reproduction and the possibility to shoot in ISO 5000 (it's really dark here during the winter months), so the larger size of the camera might be okey considering the reduced carrying of lighting equipment. The Varicam LT is supposed to be supported by the O7Q in the future which is also good for me (although it'll make it even more cumbersome than my current camera) so I've planned to buy just one P2 card to start with, since they're expensive (just like the Red media is but I don't have an alternative media for Red as far as I know). The Red codec and the cameras are popular here, and editors and such are used to it. Also, I've ordered (I'm still waiting) a wireless follow focus system from RTMotion (Latitude) which is said to work very well with Red cameras, and as far as I can see it doesn't have any remote control functionality for the Varicams (like record button from the thumbwheel), hopefully it'll be possible in the future.

I've managed to put together a Scarlet-W kit that will have a similar cost to a simple Varicam LT kit. Since I already own some V-lock batteries I'm thinking about changing the battery plate to a V-lock on the Varicam LT, if you have a better suggestion for battery plate, please let me know.

Varicam LT kit:
1. Varicam LT
2. P2 card 256 GB
3. P2 card reader
4. Hawk Woods VL-CF10 battery plate

Scarlet-W kit:
1. Scarlet W with one OLPF
2. DSMC Canon mount - Aluminium
3. DSMC2 V-lock I/O expander
4. RED Mini-mag 240 GB
5. Red Station Red Mini-mag
6. DSMC2 Red Touch 4,7" LCD

The main difference between these set-ups (as far as I can see) is that the Varicam LT has XLR-inputs but on the other hand we've always had a sound technician with a Sound Devices recorder on those jobs anyway, so the need for XLR-inputs is not necessary even though it's better to have it of course for other types of jobs.
I have a versatile rig (Tilta/Wooden Camera combination) that would probably fit these cameras, I guess I'll just need to buy some sort of top plate (to any of them) or similar to attach accessories.

If I'm wrong here or you just have another opinion, please let me know.
The main pros for each camera is, as far as I can see:

Panasonic Varicam LT:
1. Much better low light capabilty, demands less lighting.
2. Better ergonomics/mass for shoulder mount and (my) "steadicam".
3. Better colour reproduction.
4. Better handling of highlights and shadows.
5. Optional recording via O7Q.
6. XLR-inputs.
7. Control panel can be moved.
8. Internal ND-filters

Red Scarlet-W:
1. A more established camera here in Sweden, for the type of productions I do mostly. (For TV they mostly use Sony (FS7/F5) and Canon (C300).)
2. Lighter? More easy to do handheld shots, use in tight spaces or on gimbals.
3. Higher resolution.
4. More popular (better?) codec.
5. Internal raw recording.
6. Will work well with my FF-system from RTMotion.
7. Better HFR capability?

In some aspects the Scarlet-W might seem like a better choice and you might ask yourself why I'm asking this in the Varicam LT forum. The reason is that there's something I like about the Varicam, maybe because there isn't any hype going on, but that also means that there isn't so much information about it out there. There's also the fact that I really, really hate bad rolling shutter and moiré. I have no clue which of the two cameras perform better in that regard, although I have a hunch that the Varicam LT is better when it comes to rolling shutter.

Another thing that is a bit unclear to me is if the Varicam LT can record 2K (regular fram rates) without cropping the sensor like it does in HFR.
Also, does the Varicam LT produce any noise with fans? I know that some Reds create a bit of noise.

I know my post is long and all of you probably have better things to do, but If you can share some of your experiences and knowledge I will be very grateful and if you ever come to Stockholm I'll buy you a couple of beers and show you around. :smile:

Thank you!
 
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Varicam over scarlet.....the low light capabilities alone will pay off every time you shoot. Also, getting into RED's ecosystem can get expensive.........but, who knows what might be at IBC
 
I would choose the Scarlet-W any day.

There are many reasons why or why not with one vs. the other, and your post broke down some of the differences...but at the end of the day I will take the RED's name and the image quality/color science over the Varicam LT.
 
Jim Martin said:
Varicam over scarlet.....the low light capabilities alone will pay off every time you shoot. Also, getting into RED's ecosystem can get expensive.........but, who knows what might be at IBC
Click to expand...

Yep, the light capabilities are really the main reason to buy it, I think.
 
NorBro said:
I would choose the Scarlet-W any day.

There are many reasons why or why not with one vs. the other, and your post broke down some of the differences...but at the end of the day I will take the RED's name and the image quality/color science over the Varicam LT.
Click to expand...

So the image quality is better with Red? I'm not saying you're wrong (I don't know) but based on what some people have said here the image of the Varicam is better (better low light capability, highlight roll off and colours). I understand that the Reds are popular and they seem to be very good. My main concern with them is rolling shutter (but I haven't found any comparison between the Scarlet-W and Varicam LT in that regard) and fan noise. So if you have experience or know something about this, please let me know.
 
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I don't think anything is better...just different. If someone offered me a Varicam LT, I would grab it before they could even blink.

If I had a choice, I would choose the RED based on the color science, workflow and brand. The community and support is also nice.

(XLR inputs on the S-W are available via an additional expander module for more $$$.)

I recommend downloading some clips from the LT @ISO5000. Not exactly crystal clear like some may think. Newsshooter also has an amazing review on the camera as well.

You seem to be thoroughly analyzing and researching both options, so that's good. Definitely rent both cameras if possible.

You also have to consider availability. If you ordered a S-W now, you may not receive it until February/March 2017. (Same for Raven...which maybe could be another option for you?)

Overall, I would bet on the RED to attract more clients than the LT (if that's the kind of market you'll end up in), and be the better investment as a result.
 
I didn't have the scarlet-W but I had the scarlet-D, and before that the MX. The scarlet-W doesn't seem to be drastically different from the scarlet-D from what I saw. I cancelled my scarlet-W order for the Varicam which I got this summer. I would personally choose the Varicam any day. Everything is just better. The DR, the lowlight, the colors, the body. I never got anything as sharp with the scarlet. And the weirdest thing for me is the codec. It's more flexible than the scarlet raw in post. It's always a bit of a pain to grade Red footages because the color science is not good at all. The skins always appear sick and lifeless. Even in "Stranger Things" which is a nice looking serie because of the flashy clothes and 80s sets mainly, the skins don't look good. There is always this yellowish tint all over too, purple skies, etc. On the Varicam I just apply the Pana Lut or do some basic levels and it's gorgeous. It's possible to push the image quite far. I always used all the Raw power on the scarlet to approach something acceptable. If you want a soft Alexa look or Arri colors on the Red by modifying hues & the curves, noise is appearing super fast, and it's not pretty. The image is crazy clean on the Pana. Since I sold my Red for this one, it's night and day.
The fact that there are so many Red models now and that almost everybody has a Red, shooting same-look videos, also pushed me to get the Pana. All these expensive updates every year @Red finished to convince me to change. I bought Reds because I was not able to afford the Alexa, the Varicam is the closest thing now. I'm done spending big amounts of money upgrading cameras that are always said to be perfect but still need upgrades, and are still not on par with Arri and Varicam regarding DR and colors, which are, in my opinion, the most important part.
Concerning the raw output, I was also thinking I would get the Odyssey, but after the first day of shooting I knew I would never need it.
There is the 5 years free warranty in Europe which is another advantage.
 
NorBro said:
I don't think anything is better...just different. If someone offered me a Varicam LT, I would grab it before they could even blink.

If I had a choice, I would choose the RED based on the color science, workflow and brand. The community and support is also nice.

(XLR inputs on the S-W are available via an additional expander module for more $$$.)

I recommend downloading some clips from the LT @ISO5000. Not exactly crystal clear like some may think. Newsshooter also has an amazing review on the camera as well.

You seem to be thoroughly analyzing and researching both options, so that's good. Definitely rent both cameras if possible.

You also have to consider availability. If you ordered a S-W now, you may not receive it until February/March 2017. (Same for Raven...which maybe could be another option for you?)

Overall, I would bet on the RED to attract more clients than the LT (if that's the kind of market you'll end up in), and be the better investment as a result.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know that I can put in extra for XLR-inputs but then it'll become much more expensive. I'm already a bit concerned that I might be spending too much, since everything is getting "old" so fast these days. So I'd rather not pay add much more cost. I'll eventually buy a better EVF, more/bigger V-locks and P2 cards for the Varicam LT, if i get that camera. The Scarlet-W, I fear, will cost more. Also, I would have to buy ND-filters and a matte box in that case. Now I can rent filters and matte box when needed.

I'm aware that the ISO5000 isn't as clear as ISO800, but I still don't find the noise that bad, it's more pleasant than many others that I've seen. Also Mr. Papert wrote in another thread that if the base ISO is 5000 one can lower it to make it more clean.
I've also read the review on Newsshooter and it's very informative and good. Mr. Allards main negative impression seems to be the lack of audio controls, the need to restart the camera when changing codec/frame rate and that starting the camera takes too long. Since the new firmware the audio controls are at least a bit better, it seems, and since I'm not shooting documentary stuff anyway (even though I'd like to but you can't make a living doing it here) I don't feel it's a dealbreaker in my case, although it of course would be better if that issue didn't exist and there were more manual controls on it. But, the Scarlet-W suffers from the same.

I'm afraid renting is out of the question since the rental houses only have Panasonic ENG-cameras, nor do they seem to have any Scarlet-W's.

Yes, the availability is an issue for the Scarlet-W. Although there's really no rush since my FS700 still serves me well, I would really try to work with something better and hunt jobs. I haven't really been doing that the last couple of years (personal reasons) so I'm kind of eager to just do stuff and get started. The Raven seems nice but the crop factor makes it "useless" to me. I have the BMPCC (a very nice camera for the price) with a Speedbooster and that works fine for some purposes.

There I can agree, BUT on the other hand "everyone" has a Red here and no one has a Varicam. The thing is that it might be an USP (Unique Selling Proposition) since I'd be one of the few in Sweden that has the camera (as far as I know) and if it can cut budget costs (for lighting and renting) but still produce a beautiful image, maybe I'll be hired more? It's just a thought and I can of course be wrong here.
 
Alex Roz said:
I didn't have the scarlet-W but I had the scarlet-D, and before that the MX. The scarlet-W doesn't seem to be drastically different from the scarlet-D from what I saw. I cancelled my scarlet-W order for the Varicam which I got this summer. I would personally choose the Varicam any day. Everything is just better. The DR, the lowlight, the colors, the body. I never got anything as sharp with the scarlet. And the weirdest thing for me is the codec. It's more flexible than the scarlet raw in post. It's always a bit of a pain to grade Red footages because the color science is not good at all. The skins always appear sick and lifeless. Even in "Stranger Things" which is a nice looking serie because of the flashy clothes and 80s sets mainly, the skins don't look good. There is always this yellowish tint all over too, purple skies, etc. On the Varicam I just apply the Pana Lut or do some basic levels and it's gorgeous. It's possible to push the image quite far. I always used all the Raw power on the scarlet to approach something acceptable. If you want a soft Alexa look or Arri colors on the Red by modifying hues & the curves, noise is appearing super fast, and it's not pretty. The image is crazy clean on the Pana. Since I sold my Red for this one, it's night and day.
The fact that there are so many Red models now and that almost everybody has a Red, shooting same-look videos, also pushed me to get the Pana. All these expensive updates every year @Red finished to convince me to change. I bought Reds because I was not able to afford the Alexa, the Varicam is the closest thing now. I'm done spending big amounts of money upgrading cameras that are always said to be perfect but still need upgrades, and are still not on par with Arri and Varicam regarding DR and colors, which are, in my opinion, the most important part.
Concerning the raw output, I was also thinking I would get the Odyssey, but after the first day of shooting I knew I would never need it.
There is the 5 years free warranty in Europe which is another advantage.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your input sir!

I share your opinion about using something that has another look, and I'm not so fond of updates either. Also, the 5 years warranty is a really big deal.

If the internal codec is as good as you say, maybe I'll sell my Odyssey after testing the result when the Varicam raw is activated.
BTW, do you know if the issue with the 240p footage has been fixed? From what I've read there seems to be a problem with the transcoding which makes the image look much more pixelated than it really is.

Also, in my original post I asked if someone knows if the Varicam can use the whole sensor for 2K, or is the sensor always cropped when not shooting 4K? Since you own the camera maybe you know this? :)​
 
Milan O. said:
Thank you for your input sir!

I share your opinion about using something that has another look, and I'm not so fond of updates either. Also, the 5 years warranty is a really big deal.

If the internal codec is as good as you say, maybe I'll sell my Odyssey after testing the result when the Varicam raw is activated.
BTW, do you know if the issue with the 240p footage has been fixed? From what I've read there seems to be a problem with the transcoding which makes the image look much more pixelated than it really is.

Also, in my original post I asked if someone knows if the Varicam can use the whole sensor for 2K, or is the sensor always cropped when not shooting 4K? Since you own the camera maybe you know this? :)​
Click to expand...

To be honest I didn't try the 240fps option yet, I used the 120fps many times. There was some weird artifacts with the AVC intra LT in Resolve but it disappeared with the last Davinci update. I'll try the 240fps option tomorrow and will tell you. You can shoot 2k in S35 with the whole sensor yes, and 1080P prores 444 with the whole sensor. The cropped sensor is for 120/240fps slowmo. Concerning slowmo I didn't expect to use the 120fps speed, I thought the cropped thing would not look good, but it's super good and clean. It's equivalent to 2.5k on the Red Dragon sensor but way cleaner and sharper. And the native 5000 iso is great for slowmo as the camera needs more light with high frame rates.
 
Alex Roz said:
To be honest I didn't try the 240fps option yet, I used the 120fps many times. There was some weird artifacts with the AVC intra LT in Resolve but it disappeared with the last Davinci update. I'll try the 240fps option tomorrow and will tell you. You can shoot 2k in S35 with the whole sensor yes, and 1080P prores 444 with the whole sensor. The cropped sensor is for 120/240fps slowmo. Concerning slowmo I didn't expect to use the 120fps speed, I thought the cropped thing would not look good, but it's super good and clean. It's equivalent to 2.5k on the Red Dragon sensor but way cleaner and sharper. And the native 5000 iso is great for slowmo as the camera needs more light with high frame rates.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this! It helps me a lot. I'm glad to hear that it doesn't crop the image when shooting in 2K. Yes, I've been thinking that the ISO5000 must be really good for HFR. Since I have the FS700 I know how fast it gets dark when the frame rates are increased.

BTW, does the Varicam LT have any nasty sounding fans?
 
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At this cost level the dealers will be your friend - go drink thier coffee and do some tests

I tested both scarlet and f5 and bought neither as they both had flaws that made them not worth the money

yoir 700:eek:7q might stack up quite well
 
I don't know much about the swedish money vs UK pound, but as a french guy I bought the Varicam in the UK, and with the Brexit £/€ rate I paid 6600€ less than the price in france. I paid 17200€ (14600£ - 164.200 KR) for the Varicam LT + P2 card + P2 card reader. With a 5 years warranty, XLRs, SDI, ND filters, etc, it's less expensive than a scarlet-W here. Not even considering the 5000 iso option which will make lighting cheaper.
 
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morgan_moore said:
At this cost level the dealers will be your friend - go drink thier coffee and do some tests

I tested both scarlet and f5 and bought neither as they both had flaws that made them not worth the money

yoir 700:eek:7q might stack up quite well
Click to expand...

Thank you for joining Mr. Moore. Unfortunately the dealers here in Sweden don't keep cameras like these in stock, and they're way more expensive than buying from the UK if I would place an order.

So you think that the FS700/O7Q is almost as good as these alternatives? I read an FS7 vs. FS700/O7Q thread here the other day. Many say that the FS7 handles colours much better than the FS700, and I've also seen a comparison between the FS7 and Varicam LT. The Varicam LT looked much better.
If what they say is true, I guess the Varicam LT is much better. I've always had problems with red colours when shooting S-log2 on the FS700, they look orange.
 
Alex Roz said:
I don't know much about the swedish money vs UK pound, but as a french guy I bought the Varicam in the UK, and with the Brexit £/€ rate I paid 6600€ less than the price in france. I paid 17200€ (14600£ - 164.200 KR) for the Varicam LT + P2 card + P2 card reader.
Click to expand...

Including VAT?

Yes, the pound is much better for us since Brexit, but it's on the rise again, so I need to buy it soon I guess. :)

I got a really good quote today and I'm considering going for it. I'll wait until IBC though, since I'm actually not in a hurry in the sense that I need it for a booked job. I have a couple of shoots planned but my FS700 (w/o the O7Q) will be better for those jobs because of the size.
 
Including VAT yes :)
And the euro/pound today would make it even cheaper than I got 2 months ago.
I bought from 3Dbroadcast.
 
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