Update red.com "Recommended"

Platform agnostic, that is the key phrase. It will be up to the NLE companies to implement support for camera technologies like Red. I've become quite platform agnostic, as I have to work on Avids (PC and Mac), FCP, and Pro Tools (PC and Mac) on a daily basis. Only thing you have to do is get used to CTL/Alt/CMD keys. Otherwise, they are tools, each one capable of doing great things. I sense some people have had some issues with FCP users coming off as elite, which kind of makes me chuckle, because that was what used to happen with Avid editors in the past. They never took FCP serious and used to mock it. I've even been guilty of mocking Premiere, even though I should know better. It's probably come a long way, and is just as valid as any NLE as long as it can do what you need it to do. These debates get tiring because they don't really prove much, other than people use what works best for their situation. Bottom line for Red buyers: What system will accomplish the workflow you intend to throw at it? And, how much can you spend on that system?

Steve
 
hey lpcvideo1, we're thinking the same.. the same idea at the same time.. be aware if one of these days you won't receive a post from someone of these known posters from another user account accusing you and me as being the same poster.. :grin:

:evil: it happens when the competition doesn't get in any way other than as expressly permitted under such attemptsssssssssss to discredit the opponent.. your ideas.. worst: your work, interests, needs, surviving etc (when they keep going and going and going anonymously..) and we keep going with the friends done lately at our pm inbox.. (our real poll.. eheheh)
 
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Originally posted by Graeme Nattress:

As a company, RED is platform agnostic. We're a camera company and hence want support from all platforms. However, as individual people, we have our noted preferences.
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I think it's a good idea to remain platform agnostic, both in execution and in image. Ultimately, it's the individual artists and not the platforms they use that Red is working for.

That being said, I'm not surprised that many members of the Red team use Macs. For the record, I'm also a Mac user for years and continue to do so because of Apple's leadership in innovation and pushing the envelope (usually) when it comes to integration of technology and creativity -- reasons not too different from what I love about the spirit of the Red team.
 
awesome post laguuun..thanks.

laguun " And my main concern is - there is no 4K finishing on OS X, yet."

----crossing fingers for 4k redcode-raw support in FCP by the time REd ships--
 
tonacidigital said:
awesome post laguuun..thanks.

laguun " And my main concern is - there is no 4K finishing on OS X, yet."

----crossing fingers for 4k redcode-raw support in FCP by the time REd ships--
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that would be fantastic. i wouldn´t care if its vegas, fcp, ppro... any editing application who is able to handle solid basic editing and outputs edls.

one thing would -even- be better, a avi/mov redcode wrapper, because if we have a (however done) driverbasing support inside (whatever) NLE on a (or two) platform - the myriads of other aps still will be locked out.

VFX there is combustion, ae, digital fusion, shake, motion etc, 3D anim 3ds max, softimage xsi, maya, specialshots retimer, boyou, matchmover, transcoding procoder, cleaner... etc. simply to much to support and quality assurance. And always im/exporting when one has the nice redcode... that would be soooo sad.

however, folks, even if a wrapper or native ppro/fcp support is missing - whe are talking about a camera here. last time i checked, my arri BL -AND- my sony cinealta both didn´t offer any transcoding/workflow at all, that is, without using the scanner/hdcam vtr.

BTW: What we can strongly recommend if one needs -strong- transcoding/redcine power:

http://tyan.com/products/html/thunderk8qw.html

that is a regular board, available from standard sales channels for ~1200 €$.

did i mention it runs 16 opteron cores? its standard, you can buy it today.
It computes much faster than several xeon basings dells, apples or hps together who "only" support 4 cores, not 16, at this moment in time.
really recommendable little personal supercomputer, perfect match for redcine computing i suppose...
i would relly like to see that one on the "red recommended." list for the windows-side of this universe.

ps. graeme, when i worked in the dark past for cynegy/aist, discreet and some other corps... we had some nice & clever inhouse tools, really really basic, really easy code (~one manday of a interface-level coder) which we did ourself to overcome limitations in early revs & alpha/beta.... some of the ideas of those could be helpful.

Little gadgets like a singleframe collector for the transcoder/importer module instead of a database-reliant networkrenderer etc. Great to have if there is not enough manpower & qa to code a database&network reliant render/transcode and/or wrapper in the given amount of time.

if you wish i can certainly dig a little bit in the backups and find some more stuff about the simple but highly functional "onedaywonders" (i think that even was the folders name of the tools in the network), they certainly had some pretty clever "primitive genious" workflow ideas in there.

pps. will there be .... an api?
 
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stevesherrick said:
They never took FCP serious and used to mock it. I've even been guilty of mocking Premiere, even though I should know better.
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Wait.. I'm supposed to stop mocking FCP? And Premiere? What happened? What tear is this? Am I dead?

:huh:

I still don't understand why people would choose to use a program that's little more than a patched release of Premiere for the mac. *ducks*
 
laguun said:
BTW: What we can strongly recommend if one needs -strong- transcoding/redcine power:

http://tyan.com/products/html/thunderk8qw.html

that is a regular board, available from standard sales channels for ~1200 €$.

did i mention it runs 16 opteron cores? its standard, you can buy it today.
It computes much faster than several xeon basings dells, apples or hps together who "only" support 4 cores, not 16, at this moment in time.
really recommendable little personal supercomputer, perfect match for redcine computing i suppose...
Click to expand...

Tyan makes very powerfull motherboard, I used to mount PC with their product, but not anymore, as my experience is that you get more "power" for the same price buy building a renderfarm with cheap mounted PC. Tyan board might seems not so expensive, but after you are going to buy 8 Opterons processors, 32-64GB ECC reg RAM, etc, etc all a more expensive than consumer products and at the end your Supercomputer is as expensive as 15 or more consumer computers as Intel Pentium DualCore 3GHertz with 4G of RAM. It is a bit the RAID spirit, against one very fast and very expensive HDD, in my opinion.
 
what´s up now ? can´t find the side red.com/recommanded.htm . did they close it ? does anybody has copied the content ?
 
I have been using a pc based computer for my work but now i will be getting into editing and working with red and a suitable NLE plus fast computer (still to be purchased) i do wonder whether i should jump ship and move over to a MAC. The reasons are that since Macs are now cross platform and using intel the thought of going the mac route does seem more attractive. The other reason, i will probably want to do as much of the editing myself and having never edited before i feel pretty certain that i will have to hand it over to a professional post house to complete for me at some stage. Here lies the problem? most post houses appear to do avid and FCP and it is much harder to get one that does premiere. Those that don't do premiere might well charge you more for the extra work involved.

Plus Apple are more likely to come up with the best NLE to use with red initially. Whats your thought on this guys.

Michael
 
Lud Mux: I think Graeme was rightfully afraid it might launch undue speculation and panic. (See last 8 pages for an example.)

laboprod: The exception though is on tasks that can't be distributed and are needed to be real time: such as compositing or 4k editing. If you're grading 4 layers of footage at 4k, you aren't going to want to wait for the project file to be sent to 10 computers, processed and sent back. It was my experience in Maya that unless the frame took more than 10 minutes it was faster on a dual core system than being sent to 8 render nodes. 3D Studio Max was a little better at about 5 minutes, but still a far cry from real-time. But you are right, for things that are going to take a while like rendering the final product or processing RAW footage, I would take 8 consumer computers over an 8 core computer.

On a side note: I can vouch for Tyan, all of our render nodes were Tyan rack mounted systems, they never let us down. Good driver support too.

Mike: My vote is with Avid. I don't know yet how much help REDCINE is going to be for conforming, but if you edit in Avid it'll be a rediculously simple process to step up to a Nitris for that 4k conform. Not to mention Avid is still the only editor I've ever used that delivers blazing fast real time performance even on underpowered systems. The workflow is faster, easier, it's multiplatform and you can take your data to a PC or a Mac without any problems and you're still going to find more professional independent editors who know Avid if you need to hire some help.

Not to mention, now you can pick up Media Composer for both the PC and Mac as software only! I can't think of anything that would tempt me to leave.
 
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My hope will not die, that anytime the prof users will be winner in this forum. So we cry to get more information to set up our systems for a RED workflow. I think more than 50% of the forums users didn´t understand that the RED one is only a little (even very important) part of a big puzzle to make films...
 
ludmux said:
what´s up now ? can´t find the side red.com/recommanded.htm . did they close it ? does anybody has copied the content ?
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don't worry mister.. they will post it again.. it didn't escape.. but with only one difference: it'll come with the PC specs too.. i hope, we hope.. a large "minority" of red buyers are asking..

ludmux said:
My hope will not die, that anytime the prof users will be winner in this forum. So we cry to get more information to set up our systems for a RED workflow. I think more than 50% of the forums users didn´t understand that the RED one is only a little (even very important) part of a big puzzle to make films...
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mine (hope) either.. maybe one day more than 50% of the forum users may understand there are a lot of different departments inside this major filmmaking field.. and the events coverage or the corporate video prof user is not less important than the artist who sells his/her work or the producer/writer/director vs. the cinematographer and vice-versa.. then, you'll be right on your last part: "the RED one is only a little (even very important) part of a big puzzle to make films..." thus, i couldn't agree more than that..
 
im.thatoneguy said:
Wait.. I'm supposed to stop mocking FCP? And Premiere? What happened? What tear is this? Am I dead?

:huh:

I still don't understand why people would choose to use a program that's little more than a patched release of Premiere for the mac. *ducks*
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Gavin, I hear where you're coming from. Like I said I have to deal with both on a daily basis. Avid has some terrific real time performance. They also have some things that can drive you crazy, just like FCP, Premiere, etc. It will be interesting to see how these apps evolve over the next year.

Steve
 
Yeah, right. Patched Premiere - you must be joking. :-)

Really, for the most part, REDCINE should facilitiate most workflows and compliment the use of the REDCODE codec.
 
im.thatoneguy said:
laboprod: The exception though is on tasks that can't be distributed and are needed to be real time: such as compositing or 4k editing. If you're grading 4 layers of footage at 4k, you aren't going to want to wait for the project file to be sent to 10 computers, processed and sent back. It was my experience in Maya that unless the frame took more than 10 minutes it was faster on a dual core system than being sent to 8 render nodes. 3D Studio Max was a little better at about 5 minutes, but still a far cry from real-time. But you are right, for things that are going to take a while like rendering the final product or processing RAW footage, I would take 8 consumer computers over an 8 core computer.
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I fully understand what you mean and admit that you are completely right.
But have you experience of clustering? I want to try openmosix (when I have some time :-), an opensource cluster engine (for exemple:
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-colinux/)
It might be a good solution, as I think it doesn't need to transfer project file through the network.

Thanks for your intersting post.
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
Yeah, right. Patched Premiere - you must be joking. :-)

Really, for the most part, REDCINE should facilitiate most workflows and compliment the use of the REDCODE codec.
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i think he wasn't joking. Premiere is at cost zero and David Newman has been offering his workflow from there with the results that we all know.. just for general information, he has been announcing an online setup for around $5,000.. 4k at home?

where is the same in mac?

being fcp or anything else isn't relevant.. the problem is to have it:

as affordable as possible..
easy editing..
sweet color correcting..
a suitable integrated workflow..

all the rest isn't our concern..
 
The joke as I read it was that FCP was little more than an old copy of premiere for mac, patched to add new features. As anyone who remembers premiere of the time FCP was released, premiere was the buggiest peice of software around, and sometimes I could barely make a single edit before it crashed for me.

Graeme
 
It wasn't a joke. The first NLE I learned was Premiere. And it was a worthless pile of hell forsaken **** that I got so frustrated with I threw it out, started using Windows Movie Maker, because at least I could finish editing. I prefered editing on my dub tapes to Premiere. I was comfortable with my dub tapes (and actually editing on tape isn't all *that* bad.)

When I first used Final Cut, I had very little trouble just sitting down and using it because the interface and workflow seemed to be exactly the same. The look and feel of FCP is like Premiere wanted to be. Except stable. Hence why I called it a "Patched Premiere". Or at least a cool uncle.

laboprod: I haven't tried clustering. I don't understand it well enough to implement so I've always ignored it and been afraid of what I don't understand. ;)
 
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I never had a problem with Premiere, a problem the size people complain about. Sometimes that happens though. No major problems here, hell for someone else. Personally I could never use Avid, can't stand the layout. FCP is basically Premiere Pro. Same thing, different platform. Whatever works for you is what all this boils down to. The real problem is having RED work with what works for everyone. That's alot to support.
 
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