"Tiny Dancer" - a film by Jon Coy

JCVR said:
I really enjoyed this one. bummed you didn't make it. i'm excited that there might be a longer cut coming along.
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Thanks JCVR. It's nice to know that some people genuinely enjoyed the film and wanted it to succeed. Just wasn't the fest for our film. Plus, I think our slightly extended cut (it will only be about 45 seconds to a minute longer, depending) will help flesh out a couple of things and A) add a little more dynamic and motivation to the male character besides what he gives in the dialogue, and B) make it feel a little more fluid.

The next festival we're entering is hosted by our own University and is headed by people who more than likely have a little penchant for European-influenced films, so we might fare just a little better there.

Anyway, thanks again. :beer:
 
Lawsuit_Boy said:
It's really cool because all of the films will be screened at our local theater here in Kent, so I'll get to see it on the big screen. :) Should be fun.
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That's nice! Are you sure you did all that you could do with the sound between the guy and the dancer? Even if its a tiny bit better, it will help the film overall.
 
Sprocketboy said:
That's nice! Are you sure you did all that you could do with the sound between the guy and the dancer? Even if its a tiny bit better, it will help the film overall.
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Pretty much. I can bring the master levels of the entire piece up as well as individual clips, but the more I "clean" the audio files, the more I lose in quality. We had to make due with the dvx's on-board mic most of the time, so we picked up a ton of extra room tone.

I'll definitely tinker with the audio a lot more before the next fest in an attempt to really smooth it out. I just don't want to lose more quality than I've already lost.

(You should hear the clips raw. Plenty of signal noise).

We also don't have the time to do some correct ADR and make the sound perspective and timing correct, especially since there are a few more shots we're going to be picking up between tomorrow and Friday.

I promise, I will find a dedicated sound man for the next project who I can trust to give us smooth, clean sound.
 
Lawsuit_Boy said:
Pretty much. I can bring the master levels of the entire piece up as well as individual clips, but the more I "clean" the audio files, the more I lose in quality. We had to make due with the dvx's on-board mic most of the time, so we picked up a ton of extra room tone.

I'll definitely tinker with the audio a lot more before the next fest in an attempt to really smooth it out. I just don't want to lose more quality than I've already lost.

(You should hear the clips raw. Plenty of signal noise).

We also don't have the time to do some correct ADR and make the sound perspective and timing correct, especially since there are a few more shots we're going to be picking up between tomorrow and Friday.

I promise, I will find a dedicated sound man for the next project who I can trust to give us smooth, clean sound.
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I just took another look at it and its not worth doing ADR. I rather hear the sound you have now than ADR. What did you use to clean up the sound?
 
Sprocketboy said:
I just took another look at it and its not worth doing ADR. I rather hear the sound you have now than ADR. What did you use to clean up the sound?
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I agree. ADR would decimate any chance of smooth, inoffensive, and invisible sound.

Well, I basically played with a twenty bar equalizer in Vegas 7 to dim certain frequencies on some clips, as well as used a parametric equalizer to tone down the higher frequency signal noise and hums that I was constantly hearing.

The clips sound very much like they did before, but just a little hollowed and without the signal noise from before. I was able to do away with a lot of it. Most of those hallways reverberate quite a bit and the elevator can be heard all the way down the hall. It really was a nightmare of a situation.

Any suggestions?
 
Lawsuit_Boy said:
Most of those hallways reverberate quite a bit and the elevator can be heard all the way down the hall. It really was a nightmare of a situation.

Any suggestions?
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Reverberation will kill you. I'm afraid of it. The only thing I can think of at this moment is to Duplicate the voice track and equalize it, as to eliminate all lows and all highs. Keep only between 5Khz to 6.5Khz. Fade it down the entire track until it sounds good, if at all. Its only a suggestion. It may not work at all.

Do you have noise reduction software, like Sound Soap? Give it a try if you do. Sometimes noise reduction software works, depending on how extreme the noise is in the scene. I actually used Apple's Soundtrack Pro a little bit in LOOK AT ME. Vegas may have something similar. Let me know if you succeed at any good results.

If you want, send me a swatch of your soundtrack, and I'll take a crack at it.

Good luck.
 
Sprocketboy said:
Reverberation will kill you. I'm afraid of it. The only thing I can think of at this moment is to Duplicate the voice track and equalize it, as to eliminate all lows and all highs. Keep only between 5Khz to 6.5Khz. Fade it down the entire track until it sounds good, if at all. Its only a suggestion. It may not work at all.

Do you have noise reduction software, like Sound Soap? Give it a try if you do. Sometimes noise reduction software works, depending on how extreme the noise is in the scene. I actually used Apple's Soundtrack Pro a little bit in LOOK AT ME. Vegas may have something similar. Let me know if you succeed at any good results.

If you want, send me a swatch of your soundtrack, and I'll take a crack at it.

Good luck.
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I do have a noise reduction application in Vegas, but it only helps so much. I think that the more I do to it the worse it's going to get. I might just have to try to smooth it out in the cuts even more and just raise the master levels up and hope for the best. I'll try a couple of things and get back to you.
 
Wow, thanks Abraham. That's very kind of you. :beer:

I wish we would have as well, but I think the sound problems and the type of story/presentation hurt us in a festival like this one. The slightly extended cut will, in my opinion, be a little better and even more dynamic in regards to developing the two characters, especially the boy.

I'll definitely keep working though. Although school and work are going to be taking most of my time in the next year or so, which means I might not be around these parts very often.
 
Very well shot, the old less is more theory, I loved it. kind of an awkward approach, so far another stand alone, I'm really impressed with the diversity in this competition. I liked the cold color temp too, helped the settings along beautifully.
 
New cut of Tiny Dancer available on vimeo!

http://vimeo.com/3963034

It sheds a little more light on a few things and helps make the film feel less rushed and a little more fleshed out. I doubt anyone will see this, though. Regardless, enjoy. :)
 
Watched it, the little things really pull it together and emphasize the isolationism more thoroughly. It doesn't feel cumbersome either, its refreshing and I still found myself enjoying it.
 
I watched. You're going to hate me for saying this, but I think your other version was better in a few ways, although this one has some good additions.
The longer one drags on a bit too much for me, especially the parts after she heads home and looks for the card, whereas the shorter one gets more to the point. If you had music, I think it would work, and maybe it's worth a try, but I would cut some out.

The one thing I don't understand is why she goes to the theater/ classroom first. We've never seen it, so why wouldn't she go someplace that you've established first? I mentioned before how the picking up trash on the floor and throwing it reads as unrealistic and overacting, IMO, especially the condom. Is a girl really going to touch a condom on the floor??? I would cut that whole scene, personally.

The shots you added in the beginning felt too much as well, and it seemed like she was very consious of the camera. I detected a hint of a smile and awareness that gave me that impression. That part drags now too. Before, I really liked the opening because it told us the only thing we really need to know for the story- She's the tiny dancer in college. Enough.

Besides the fact that they should have some sort of backup to get into the building if you lose your card, (it probably happens every other day, right?) which sort of makes the premise feel false for me, I liked the stuff you added when the guy got there. I just wished you got to it sooner. Their interaction and acting is pretty good together. Good chemistry and there's some nice tension, because half your audience is probably thinking he's going to whip out a knife and start slicing any second, while the other half is thinking... whatever they're thinking. (I'm in the former group. ha ha.)

I know I've been hard on you in my two reviews, and maybe it's a little because this isn't my favorite type of film, but I think you still could do better on this piece. It seems self-indulgent now and tries too hard to be more than it is at the core: girl loses key, boy returns it to get a chance to meet her.

You'll probably dissagree with all my opinions, which is fine, but I want you to know that you obviously have talent, and there are many great things about this movie that make me look forward to your next one. Quest fest?
 
Hey there, yeah i think the longer edit has a greater feeling of completion about it myself. I think it is an improvment - the pace at times dipped a little bit - teeny weeny bit. But is that because I've seen it before? Or because im watching it on a laptop lol

Rather than with a cup of tea before a tv screen (or this cute wee digi projector im using now heheh way more fun!)

Anyway this is an improvement I think an already excellent film. What i find quite hilarious as a producer, is juts how cheaply this feature could be made for - annnnnd how good it could be lol in comparison to my epics in development hell!!! :P

So are you not considering this as a feature as well. College student romance - has 90mins in it. If so maybe you could use some of those mumblecore film style as that might compliment your style here too!
 
Thanks you guys. Yeehaanow, I completely understand your complaints. I don't agree with all of them, but some of them I kind of do. I know it moved quicker before, but I wanted it to slow down for a minute. We wanted to see the girl actually do a little dancing/preparing for class and sort of self-examining. Since we couldn't schedule another shooting in the dance studio (Caroline isn't actually a dance student but danced in high school), we decided to do it in her room.

I can see how her attitude might tell some people that she's conscious of the camera, I guess. I didn't see it that way, personally. I saw it as a forced smile for someone who's got enough self-esteem to not get down on herself, but not enough to really be proud of who she is. I think that's what Caroline was going for. She nailed that aspect, in my opinion. But again, I can see how one might see it the way you described.

I realize it makes the runtime longer, but it just felt right to us to see her doing more. I'll look it all over again though. There may be some things I can do to help bring the pace back up.

Lawrie- Thank you again for the kind words. It means a lot to me. Glad you feel the additions helped. It feels more complete in my opinion. There were just too many tiny variables left out for people to just "assume." And while I like making my audience fill gaps, some of them were gaps that felt more like we forgot to shoot something.

I don't think this is going to turn into a feature. I'm outlining a short that focuses on the LGBT movements and gender bending, looking to remake an older film I did (but did not complete) for lovefest called Quip, and I'm thinking of an existential drama about a man in 1890 Northwest America. We're submitting Tiny Dancer to a couple other festivals (mostly ones just a little smaller than this one, hosted by college campuses).
 
Yeehaanow - one other thing I forgot to mention. Yeah, the whole "backup" to getting in the building is a bit of a plot hole that I had to sacrifice in order to tell the story, haha.

Now, there is a shred of truth to the situation. One of the doors here DID indeed get stuck like that so we had to use another door. But in the end, there are other doors that she could use. My rationalization for it, though, is that at this point, she felt so defeated and alone that she decided to just park her butt there. Because, after all, we're trying to emphasize that there's nobody around (hence the reason we shot on campus over winter break) and besides, she still wouldn't be able to get inside the building where she could sit in a chair or something until somebody came to let her in. So, while it's a little bit of a hole left for the sake of connecting the characters, there's at least a little truth behind it.

And no, I don't think I'm entering Questfest. The only project I have lined up that could even be considered to have a type of "quest" in it is the LGBT/gender bending project I'm doing, but that's something I want to put a lot of time and effort into instead of just running-and-gunning and whipping it out like Tiny Dancer. Plus, my summer's going to be too hectic to make a decent film. :(
 
Hey Jon! Checked out the new cut. I actually like the new stuff (although I have a hard time remembering what was in the first cut and what wasn't).

I have a few notes/ideas.
I'd like to see a closeup of the card on the hallway floor after she dropped it. Perhaps you don't want us to know where she lost it, so we're in the dark like she is. But I'd prefer a clearer moment there.

Here's a way to pick up the pace and excise something that to me doesn't work. I mentioned it in my last review, but I just don't think it reads properly when she slides to find the card that isn't hers. You cut from her looking under the bench, to her running through the dark room, then to her busting through those doors. Or something like that. Cutting the sliding scene and the walking outside scene. The walking outside scene kills the urgency for me. I think you have plenty of "searching" scenes, that this wouldn't hurt the story.

One other little thing. Is there any way to kill some of the silence between "Why didn't you give me the key earlier?" and "Well you were in a rush"? It just seems awkward, like, "Jon told me not to say my line until after I left the elevator." Maybe even just dub some stuttering over the part where you can't see his face.
 
Heh, the more you guys say, the more I dislike the longer cut. Eh, it all looked good on paper, but the execution seems to have fallen through.

I think you're right about everything, Jason. I don't want to get rid of the wide shot outside with the light posts as it's one of my favorite shots. I originally had it cut together so that the search was more intimate, and the further she got, the wider the shots were and the more deserted it felt. Then, she arrives at the student center, realizes she wasn't there that day, gets discouraged, and leaves.

With him holding on his line: I wanted a moment in which he has been "made," and as they come out of the elevator, the audience is transported to the 3rd floor, watches them come out, and sees him try to justify his actions. The pause felt pretty natural to me. I see what you mean though about having him start earlier, but I didn't have the luxury of capturing audio the way I would have liked to. I always stress how important it is to get good sound, but then some of my projects sound like crap. It's pretty discouraging.

At this point, I basically couldn't give a rat's behind about the film. It was really only intended to be an exercise on my part and I never thought it would even see festivals, then I adapted it for Lossfest. I really appreciate everyone giving me such solid feedback. Hopefully I'll tell the stories of my next couple of projects (which probably won't see the light of day for a LOOOONG time) a little better.

Thanks everyone. :beer:
 
yeehaanow said:
The one thing I don't understand is why she goes to the theater/ classroom first. We've never seen it, so why wouldn't she go someplace that you've established first? I mentioned before how the picking up trash on the floor and throwing it reads as unrealistic and overacting, IMO, especially the condom. Is a girl really going to touch a condom on the floor??? I would cut that whole scene, personally.
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Sorry, I read through all of the responses very early this morning and missed this. And I must say...really man? Do you realize how sexist that response is and what types of stereotypes you're perpetuating? It's a condom that's IN THE WRAPPER STILL. I'm sorry, I really do appreciate your critiques because they always help, but this is just too much. No one person is completely predictable, especially not an eccentric college girl trying to find her way in the world. She's searching under chairs to find her key and she doesn't care what she has to dig through. The condom was more or less a humorous stab at college sexuality/lifestyle in general.

Also, more on the condom: Caroline had no problem with the condom but did with the coffee cup. The last shot in that sequence when the cup hits her shoulder and she swats at it was a natural reaction of hers because when she threw it, she realized that there might still be coffee in it. It was a natural reaction that I caught and kept. It's odd that you're so phobic about an un-opened condom packet.

Also, just to assuage your disgust with the condom, it wasn't some condom that was actually lying there. It was nice and clean out of a box.

I just flat out disagree with this one and think that you need to watch your words a little more closely before you denigrate another gender.
 
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