"Tiny Dancer" - a film by Jon Coy

[Geoff_R]

I see what you mean about the window shot now... I think it was the gum chewing that through me off, maybe made me think it was too 'chill' (bad word choice but can't think of a better way to describe it)

And I'm watching again... and I see a lot of the things you're talking about, like the two separate groups, her alone in the middle... perhaps it's not that they are overlooked, but she doesn't seem that bothered by it, the fact that she's by herself. She seems okay with that.

Honestly, I'm like her character in some ways... that was me in high school, I'd just go to the computer lab, work on there in the morning and then stay after school in the computer lab, working still but it didn't bother me, it was my choice and just 'my life', I was most certainly not an extrovert. So, although I notice her unfamiliarity with her surroundings and unease (such as when she enters that one building but leaves once she hears a lot of kids upstairs), I look at it as, 'she just wants to go to a quiet place to read or study'.

Once she meets the boy in the elevator, she's smiling and friendly and I find her endearing at these moments and yet again I'm very reminded of myself... I'm a quiet, keep to myself person, but if led into conversation with people, I'm 100% normal and quite easy to talk with

What impression did you want the viewer to walk away with? Did you want us to feel as if she felt cut off?

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

haha, it's all good Geoff. She was actually chewing on a piece of banana (that she was eating throughout the scene) when she goes to the window. It's all good though. It's subtle, but I can see how it can be overlooked. Here are some photos from the film itself to compare (this is purely for reference):

Lonely girl

Happy girl with somebody to talk to.

See what I mean in the difference there? Her whole aura changes through the film. Even though she's still goofy and energetic, she was very down at the beginning.

I see what you're saying about her not looking bothered. It's easy to make that assumption. But since this is a class she has been in for a while (since she's obviously experienced), would she really be looking around longingly? I know some might say so for the sake of the film, but I feel like I'd be spoon feeding it, and I don't want to pretend that people can't see it, because everyone can. i suppose we could have done more with her looking around in the shot, but it seemed right. Plus, that was the only shot we had at getting it. Take what you can get, eh?

Yes, I just wanted the audience to feel as if she has been secluded since her friends are gone, her family isn't shown, and she is a charming odd ball that doesn't quite fit in with her dance classmates. It's all about a lonely girl finding a friend (or maybe more) essentially. The film is ABOUT human connection and companionship. It chronicles a lonely person who gets locked out of her only comfort zone and ends up finally connecting with someone in a positive way. I figured that would be apparent. People will react the way they react, but I thought that would at least be somewhat clear. I wanted it to be a realistic portrayal, in a voyeuristic way, of a person who has a lot pushing against her. Her character's obviously young, so it's difficult to be in a new world when you feel so isolated.

That is what I was trying to get at, haha. Got a little long-winded there. Once again, I feel really bad that I had to explain it all. Makes me feel like I didn't do my job right. But, I contend that I'm still satisfied with the film and I'm very proud of the work the three of us did.

 

[Blaine]

You've shown me a person who's along. That's about all I know about her. There are a million strangers out there who we know nothing about. There lives pass us never touching us. Show me who your character is. Give me a reason to care about her. Care that she's alone. I didn't get the feeling that she was desperately reaching out for contact. You've shown her alone a lot but you're never as alone as you are when you're alone in a group of people. You touched on it in the dance class. That could have been played up more.

I could be the case that you weren't in a position as a filmmaker to show scenes of her alone in with others around her. That's okay. Take the opportunity that you did have and work with it more...the dance class. Forfeit some of the time she was hunting for her key card and develop her character. Give me a routing interest to see something good happen for/to her.

As you've shown her, I don't know if she's alone because she's an outsider or because she aloof. I guess what I'm looking for is a reason to care, some insight into who she is.

I'm going to give a bad example of what I mean but it's all I can come up with on such short notice. Let's say we see a letter or something to her mother that says something along the lines of "Don't worry, mom, I'm making lots of friends." Then juxtapose that with her isolation in the dance class. That lets me into her life a little, gives me some kind of emotional attachment that makes me care about her.

I don't know if that helps or not.

 

[Geoff_R]

...Yes, I just wanted the audience to feel as if she has been secluded since her friends are gone, her family isn't shown, and she is a charming odd ball that doesn't quite fit in with her dance classmates. It's all about a lonely girl finding a friend (or maybe more) essentially.....

...........That is what I was trying to get at, haha. Got a little long-winded there. Once again, I feel really bad that I had to explain it all. Makes me feel like I didn't do my job right. But, I contend that I'm still satisfied with the film and I'm very proud of the work the three of us did.

You should definitely be proud of the work! It's a good film IMO. But I wouldn't think for a moment that you didn't do your job right. I felt what you were describing above, I got it and I think most people will get the same thing, but getting it and feeling it are two different things and most of the time it doesn't have much to do with whether or not you did 'your job', it's just up to whether or not the viewer cares about that situation.

A lot of people could look at the character and say, "well heck, if she's lonely, maybe she should go make some friends.." you can so readily simplify the problem... I think many extroverts who have an easy time to connecting with people wouldn't care about this character in general because they see such an easy solution, and wouldn't understand her woes. But a more quiet person, someone more reserved, more private, or just someone who has been in her shoes before... they might 100% get it, but more importantly, 'they'd feel it', because they can sympathize with her struggle.

I think your target audience with this piece are people whom have felt like this young girl at some point in time in their life or another. And those people are the ones whom are going to both get it and feel for her. As with any film, it's going to appeal to some and not appeal to others, there's just you and your target audience. Forget about the rest

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

I don't know how else to do that in six minutes besides showing her doing every tiny thing she does each day. We showed the audience what she does in school, the type of environment she lives in, the type of odd clothes she wears, the way she runs, the way she talks, the way she hunts for the things she has lost, and the we also showed her in distress.

I'm not sure what else I'm suppose to give an audience in a couple of minutes. Films should be more observational than anything in my book, and Blaine, I'm really not trying to quell your opinion in the matter, I value it. I want that to be clear. But I genuinely think that I gave the audience all of the information they need, and you just didn't like the character. AND THAT'S OK WITH ME. Honestly, it really is. But I do feel that everything that's necessary to the story is there. It's all subjective anyway, right?

The good thing that happens to/for her is the interaction with the boy that wanted to meet her, and that really picked her up. And once again, it just might not be your taste. A lot of others really enjoyed that, so it's just a preference thing. I understand that.

But honestly, the letter from the mother idea just feels like a rough cliche that I didn't want to touch. I wanted to try to have people care about the girl without being overtly sentimental or forcing people to feel a certain way, hence the lack of score as well. I was hoping that the text from one of her friends, who's having a GREAT time in New York, would be enough to drive home the same idea you're expressing with the letter, except make it more authentic according to today's youth. I guess we could have had her send a message back to the friend to lie to her about having a good time, but I didn't want the character to be interpreted as someone who cannot express her feelings and wants to pretend that it isn't happening. She's smarter than that.

And I feel that a person would certainly be aloof in this atmosphere, because it's something that I have felt myself, as well have seen in tons and tons of research and studies about adolescence in these types of situations, and it is VERY common to see someone acting in an aloof manner. If she were that aloof, she wouldn't have awkwardly flirted and made friends with Dylan by the end and been inquisitive about his life. That was more than just small talk. She couldn't stop smiling at him.

Does all of this make sense? I hope so. I just feel like all of this is pretty obvious.

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

This conversation also brings up one of the inherent problems in making a short film: one can show all of these things (which is what we should do in film, SHOW NOT TELL), but sometimes there isn't enough time (especially with a six minute limit) to get EVERYONE to feel something. As we've all said, it's going to affect different people in different ways. It has made a lot of people "feel" things, but some didn't.

A feature film has the privilege of time to allow (not to MAKE) an audience feel something. It's difficult in a short film. We gave a valiant effort, but I guess we made compromises somewhere. :huh:

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

I don't know if that helps or not.

It definitely helped Blaine. I respect your opinion on the matter and I'm glad you expressed your concerns. They all made sense.

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

You should definitely be proud of the work! It's a good film IMO. But I wouldn't think for a moment that you didn't do your job right. I felt what you were describing above, I got it and I think most people will get the same thing, but getting it and feeling it are two different things and most of the time it doesn't have much to do with whether or not you did 'your job', it's just up to whether or not the viewer cares about that situation.

A lot of people could look at the character and say, "well heck, if she's lonely, maybe she should go make some friends.." you can so readily simplify the problem... I think many extroverts who have an easy time to connecting with people wouldn't care about this character in general because they see such an easy solution, and wouldn't understand her woes. But a more quiet person, someone more reserved, more private, or just someone who has been in her shoes before... they might 100% get it, but more importantly, 'they'd feel it', because they can sympathize with her struggle.

I think your target audience with this piece are people whom have felt like this young girl at some point in time in their life or another. And those people are the ones whom are going to both get it and feel for her. As with any film, it's going to appeal to some and not appeal to others, there's just you and your target audience. Forget about the rest

I agree. If you're an extrovert with a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" sort of individualistic mentality (I'm a bit of a collectivist myself), then I suppose you wouldn't enjoy the character because she's "weak" or "feeble." But that also just says that the person viewing has half of a heart and cannot see the world from that character's perspective. And I don't care about reaching those people because they wouldn't take my opinion as something substantial anyway.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words, Geoff.

 

[Geoff_R]

......A feature film has the privilege of time to allow (not to MAKE) an audience feel something. It's difficult in a short film. We gave a valiant effort, but I guess we made compromises somewhere. :huh:

One last thing I'll add... I don't think you made compromises.

Getting or even allowing the audience to 'feel' something for a character is truly the most difficult aspect of making any film. I don't care what genre, length, subject matter it is... getting a viewer to believe enough in a fabricated reality to feel anything at all for a character you conjured up in your mind is beyond hard!

I think about the countless tons of feature films I've watched and enjoyed even, yet I didn't feel for the characters... some of these are great films, oscar winning films, and while enjoyable and understandable, I sometimes don't feel for the characters. It's easy to make someone believe in a world, but to make them sorry to see your character go... that's something else entirely. I don't think there's a formula or anything special you can do... that's straight magic to me. And that's why making films is such an attractive art to pursue. There's an unexplainable facet to it that is beyond understanding and easy replication; a constant flow of creativity and expression with unknown, unpredictable results. That's a beautiful thing.

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

Another thing I thought of about the "lying to friends or parents" notion:

If we tried to develop that more, we'd run out of time and then THAT would be underdeveloped.

Also, considering how direct she is by asking, flat out, her question in the elevator and how she charged around looking for her key, while she's a little isolated and timid, she's also a very direct person when spoken to, which means that she probably wouldn't lie to her parents and tell them that she's fine. I just don't buy that. Once again, not knocking the idea because it's a good intention, but I wanted to clarify it a little more.

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

One last thing I'll add... I don't think you made compromises.

Getting or even allowing the audience to 'feel' something for a character is truly the most difficult aspect of making any film. I don't care what genre, length, subject matter it is... getting a viewer to believe enough in a fabricated reality to feel anything at all for a character you conjured up in your mind is beyond hard!

I think about the countless tons of feature films I've watched and enjoyed even, yet I didn't feel for the characters... some of these are great films, oscar winning films, and while enjoyable and understandable, I sometimes don't feel for the characters. It's easy to make someone believe in a world, but to make them sorry to see your character go... that's something else entirely. I don't think there's a formula or anything special you can do... that's straight magic to me. And that's why making films is such an attractive art to pursue. There's an unexplainable facet to it that is beyond understanding and easy replication; a constant flow of creativity and expression with unknown, unpredictable results. That's a beautiful thing.

I completely agree with everything. There are films that are so technically proficient, well-directed, and well performed that you cannot help but call it a great film. I'm a HUGE Scorsese fan, but Goodfellas, although a fantastically made and acted film, is not a film that one can find easily relatable characters or characters that one can genuinely care about sometimes, because some of them are characters don't value human life (including their own). I feel sad from a psychological and sociological about their condition, but as a person, I cannot relate to them and cannot care for them.

So good example, Geoff. But I remain firm that short films have fundamental problems with their structure. I would have loved an extra thirty seconds to a minute to elaborate on a couple of things.

Also, I might add that the films presented in this festival are what the industry itself considers "short short films." A full short film can range from twenty to sixty minutes. So we're making miniature films.

 

[Geoff_R]

...So good example, Geoff. But I remain firm that short films have fundamental problems with their structure. I would have loved an extra thirty seconds to a minute to elaborate on a couple of things...

Completely agree... that's why mine's nine minutes

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

Completely agree... that's why mine's nine minutes

haha, nice. Yeah, for the next fest we're adding just a couple of shots that might add more dynamic range that'll make the film about 6:35. I have a lot of great footage that could be added as well, but it might make it overlong. But I wanted to actually enter the competition because I've never once entered a piece of work into a contest before, and just thought I'd give it a shot.

The next three fests we're entering have time limits ranging from 15 to 30 minutes. We obviously don't need THAT much time, haha, but you get the idea.

Think of Cashback. I know a lot of people who say that they think it works as a feature, but actually made a much better short film at around 20 minutes or so. Just an example.

 

[Blaine]

But honestly, the letter from the mother idea just feels like a rough cliche that I didn't want to touch.

I don't blame you for that. I said it was a bad example but I wanted to give you an example of what I meant about getting into the character's mind and understanding her. Trying to explain what I meant by alone in a crowd, which I think you might have been able to expand upon with your dance class scene.

I guess we could have had her send a message back to the friend to lie to her about having a good time, but I didn't want the character to be interpreted as someone who cannot express her feelings and wants to pretend that it isn't happening. She's smarter than that.

I don't see the situation so much pretending that it isn't happening as much as not wanting her friends/family to worry about her.

And I feel that a person would certainly be aloof in this atmosphere, because it's something that I have felt myself

But that same aloofness (is that a word?) is going to bring its own response to the character, which in my case, it did. Neither right nor wrong, just the way it is.

If she were that aloof, she wouldn't have awkwardly flirted and made friends with Dylan by the end and been inquisitive about his life. That was more than just small talk. She couldn't stop smiling at him.

I got that, but by the time that happened I had formed an opinion based on what I saw in the piece, and it was nice but it I wasn't left wanting to know what happened.

Does all of this make sense? I hope so.

It does but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

I'm sorry but it just didn't resonate with me. I think it has more to do with the story itself than you doing your job or not. A lot of people loved Lost In Translation but I wasn't one of them. I think you'd have to admit that Sofia Coppola did her job. I wanted to like it but it just didn't happen. You've got film here that is very personal to you and you've obviously connected with a lot of people so the fact that it missed with me should be of little consequence to you.

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

I don't blame you for that. I said it was a bad example but I wanted to give you an example of what I meant about getting into the character's mind and understanding her. Trying to explain what I meant by alone in a crowd, which I think you might have been able to expand upon with your dance class scene.

I don't see the situation so much pretending that it isn't happening as much as not wanting her friends/family to worry about her.

But that same aloofness (is that a word?) is going to bring its own response to the character, which in my case, it did. Neither right nor wrong, just the way it is.

I got that, but by the time that happened I had formed an opinion based on what I saw in the piece, and it was nice but it I wasn't left wanting to know what happened.

It does but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

I'm sorry but it just didn't resonate with me. I think it has more to do with the story itself than you doing your job or not. A lot of people loved Lost In Translation but I wasn't one of them. I think you'd have to admit that Sofia Coppola did her job. I wanted to like it but it just didn't happen. You've got film here that is very personal to you and you've obviously connected with a lot of people so the fact that it missed with me should be of little consequence to you.

It's hilarious that you mention Lost in Translation because we (Caroline and I) were just talking about that film and comparing Tiny Dancer to it in style, character study, and aesthetic.

I don't blame you for it not resonating with you. That's perfectly fine. What I have a problem with is the fact that adding that "lying to parents or friends" dynamic would add a completely new complex dynamic to the film that many people would think is underdeveloped and would hurt the film. This is a "short short film" and any more than simply observing this girl in her element and how she reacts to the people that talk to her would be too much. There would be too much to play with and would simply seem like we were just making a visual list of all of this girl's characteristics. It's a glimpse into a life (as we mentioned earlier, many people go unnoticed) that I wanted to raise attention to.

Anyway Blaine, I see where you're coming from, but I just feel very differently. Hindsight is always 20/20 my friend, and if we had the ability to make a few adjustments, we would. But I'm satisfied with the resulting film and even though it's subtle, I think that helps it in the end. I guess I just have a style and aesthetic that only appeals to certain types of people.

It's been fun, but I'm wondering just how much more I can analyze my own film AFTER giving every single film (besides the exhibitions, but I'm getting to those) a fairly detailed analysis.

 

[Rylan Zolinski]

It can be hard to carry a story along with little dialogue, but you managed to do it and that in itself is a great accomplishment. Dialogue was a tad hard to hear but other than that, great job.

If your style is definitely a "show it rather than say it" type of film, check out the Korean flick 3-Iron. It's amazing considering it probably only has a page or so of dialogue throughout the film. The reason I brought this up is because your film reminded me of it in that sense.

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

It can be hard to carry a story along with little dialogue, but you managed to do it and that in itself is a great accomplishment. Dialogue was a tad hard to hear but other than that, great job.

If your style is definitely a "show it rather than say it" type of film, check out the Korean flick 3-Iron. It's amazing considering it probably only has a page or so of dialogue throughout the film. The reason I brought this up is because your film reminded me of it in that sense.

Thanks a lot! Glad you liked it. I've been wanting to see 3-Iron. I've had a lot of friends tell me about it. Haven't been able to see too many films lately, though.

 

[armisiano]

I really loved this movie. Definitely one of my highest rated so far. You told such a beautiful simple story so darn well. I'm not gonna give any real technical notes, 'cause I know you know them and you've probably received comments on them (audio & focus) already. But I seriously loved this one. Great casting by the way, the actors were very believable. It's amazing, but the moments where poor acting tends to show the most is in casual contemporary dialogue like this, and you're actors did very well. Shame you're in Ohio, I'd love to collaborate.

 

[Marlon Ladd]

Man, I can see you've had alot of comments here, so I definately don't want to beat a dead horse. This was a nice simple story you had here and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I guess because of the 6 minute time limit, I kept expecting for something to happen or for there to be some kind of resolution. I suppose in a sense you can say that there was, because she met the guy, but my concern is that there did not really seem like there was a reason to even be concerned about either of these characters or their lives. We really didn't know hardly anything about her (I know these are hard to do in 6 minutes) and we definately didn't know anything about him. I kept thinking he had some other kind of motive and was going to kill her or somethin'. Also, why is it important that she was a dancer? It didn't seem to have anything to do with the story (something I may have missed) and then we see her go to practice and then leave. I think if this was a longer story, that factor would be very important, but as it stands in this film so short (limitations, I know), it didn't seem to mean much, especially considering the title of the film. Also, it was so cold outside, why was she waiting outside, when the guy came up and didn't even have to use his keycard to get in the first door?

But anyway, having said all that, it was a sweet story and I did very much like your camera work and the shots you chose. I think the style in which you filmed the story really kept me involved and intrigued in the story. Also, I think your actors did a fine job. Keep at it - I do like your style of cinematography and storytelling.

 

[Lawsuit_Boy]

Armisiano, Marlon, sent you both PM's.