General Think I made the wrong camera choice...

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

...Those idiots on Vimeo .... They're just indulging an expensive hobby and being praised for it in the process by other hobbyists.

So ignore the videos on youtube and Vimeo.

Dont listen to the professionals either, they're elitists and gear snobs.

LOL.

... So who should we be listening to?

Exactly. Reminds me of the weight guessing scene from this Steve Martin classic.

" .... What'd I win?
NAVIN: Uh, anything in this general area right in here. Anything below the stereo and
on this side of the bicentennial glasses. Anything between the ashtrays and the thimble.
Anything in this three inches right in here in this area. That includes the Chiclets, but
not the erasers."

 

[Barry_Green]

And you'll be a "elitist gear snob" when I'm shooting on a Fischer Price PXL-2000

WHAT? No way -- YOU'd be the elitist snob if you were rockin' some PixelVision. Those things are awesome... and I don't have one. Isn't the definition of "elitist snob" basically "someone who has something I don't"?

 

[Rick Burnett]

WHAT? No way -- YOU'd be the elitist snob if you were rockin' some PixelVision. Those things are awesome... and I don't have one. Isn't the definition of "elitist snob" basically "someone who has something I don't"?

Hahah! Yes, I believe you are right!!!

The sad thing is, the coolest video camera I have EVER played with is when a friend busted out the JVC from Back to the Future. It was half broke, missing parts, but for some reason, I was just fascinated by it.

Ahhh, the joy of electronics

 

[TraumaBunny]

For a pro, indulging $500 lenses like they're "cheap" wont be a problem. They're in that kinda position and that's fine.

$500 to me isn't cheap, I busted my balls to get a 7D and the Zacuto stuff just like every other fella in my situation. Even with that rig I needed more lenses, additional sound equipment and this, that and the other too.

So I decided to be economic and practical instead. So what, I dumped a brand-name, good riddance to it. The cheaper stuff I found does exactly the same thing.


A few years ago, I used to spend hours and hours tweaking my amplifiers in an effort to fashion the "perfect guitar tone" and guess what, the audience didn't give a damn. All they heard was a rock'n'roll guitar, so in the end I stopped jerking off and just got on with it

Regular people are very easily entertained.


Whatever we film for the internet will lose quality anyway, so it doesn't matter. I've already been through the "staying up all night color-grading footage" phase, it's a waste of time. I'm on the other side of that journey and I wish I'd heard from a fella like me to begin with. It would've saved me alot of frustration AND money.

 

[TraumaBunny]

I watched that episode of House the other day, I never watch that show but I wanted to see those DSLR's in action.

It gave my drummer a headache, people kept drifting in and out of focus. This confused our brains. Although the image quality was outstanding it had a dreamy, amateurish feel to it I found irritating and hard to follow.

Because I use DSLR's I can understand why those things were happening on screen. It's happened to me too and to be honest, I was glad. It made me glad that professionals were suffering the same set-backs as me.

It confirmed to me that I didn't need Zacuto rigs and fancy lenses.


I've found effective work-arounds. I'm constantly developing solutions. Why? because I'm willing to discuss the negatives, that's why. I'm not caught up in the hysteria anymore.

This thing is a rock'n'roll instrument so anything goes.

 

[Scott F]

do you REALLY wanna do this with your day?

Much like Michael Scott, I get paid by the year, so no, my time's not valuable.

We're a little slow this morning, so I've got a few minutes to kill.

For the record, I agree with much of what you've said in this thread. I'm laughing my ass off at the dude in the garden with his jib and the poignant piano music reference. And I agree there is a level of elitism and douchbaggery in the industry, which is why I'm happy doing what I do on my level. Away from all that.

But people are entitled to their opinions. If you come in and write these small essays, can't people contest them w/o being accused of being a nerd, or uptight, or old? It just smacks of an incredibly defensive attitude, which is funny since you're the guy telling people to relax & get high and/or laid.

PS-out of curiosity, links to your videos AND music. rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

thanks,
Scott
(an admitted Andrew Kramer assembler, but I'm not shooting & posting artsy videos from my garden)

 

[Scott F]

I'm a thrash metal musician, whaddaya expect?

Well see now we're getting somewhere, I play drums. Hardcore/metal.

OK, back to s** talkin!

 

[vic777]

Keep your camcorder and make some movies and edit them and learn all kinds of stuff. I think you have a better system. In a year or two prices will have dropped drastically and you might decide to get into a Panasonic for 3D movies. You have an excellent system ... now get lights and sound equipment ... get a crew ... form a company and make a movie .... fixation on DoF is for .... people who get fixated on old dying prejudices ...

 

[TraumaBunny]

Much like Michael Scott, I get paid by the year, so no, my time's not valuable.

We're a little slow this morning, so I've got a few minutes to kill.

For the record, I agree with much of what you've said in this thread. I'm laughing my ass off at the dude in the garden with his jib and the poignant piano music reference. And I agree there is a level of elitism and douchbaggery in the industry, which is why I'm happy doing what I do on my level. Away from all that.

But people are entitled to their opinions. If you come in and write these small essays, can't people contest them w/o being accused of being a nerd, or uptight, or old? It just smacks of an incredibly defensive attitude, which is funny since you're the guy telling people to relax & get high and/or laid.

PS-out of curiosity, links to your videos AND music. rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

thanks,
Scott
(an admitted Andrew Kramer assembler, but I'm not shooting & posting artsy videos from my garden)

Dude, they attacked me. C'mon, you have a pair of nuts on ya whaddaya expect? lol

Listen when things cool down I'll fire up some links, to be honest all this squabbling has got me nervous. Whatever I fire up right now they'll attack for adolescent reasons.


For my part, I apologize. I'm a hot tempered and feisty fella. When I feel outnumbered I retaliate.

I'm tempted to do some "how to" videos but I figured that'd be a little pompous and gay. I just believe in supporting my fellow artists, I'm old-fashioned like that.

I dont think I'm a DSLR "messiah" or anything. I'm just cutting to the chase, if I'd have read messages like this I would've saved so much money.

Let's talk about gear, let's talk about what works and what doesn't work. C'mon guys, let's support the community. I wont apologize for defending myself but if I've inadvertently upset anyone else in the process then I'm genuinely sorry.

 

[Stephen Mick]

More than anything else, let's stop with the personal stuff. The OP posted because he had a question he wanted some help with. Let's stay focused on that and ditch all the unproductive trash-talking.

There's nothing wrong with sharing opinions or experiences (as long as they're backed up by…well…experience), just keep in mind (everyone) that your opinion is not fact, and that someone else's is just as valid as your own, even if you disagree.

 

[TraumaBunny]

Okay starting over and back to topic. John, if you can check out that episode of House which was filmed on DSLR's.

Watch it before making a final decision.


Ultimately filming people is where it's at. You wanna make films dont'cha? That episode of House really advertizes the limitations of a DSLR.

Although the image quality (from the House episode) is absolutely incredible the camera moves are amateurish and confusing. Characters unpredictably move in and out of focus. It just doesn't work at all. It gave my drummer a headache and confused our brains.

It sucked.


That episode is proof conclusive that regardless of how many fancy "brand-name" monitors, rigs or whatever you have around you you'll still produce the same results as an indie filmmaker when shooting with a DSLR.

So it doesn't matter if you buy cheaper tripods, lenses and so on. It wont matter if you use your laptop as a monitor. This is why I said "ignore the pro's"

When I suggested that you stop watching the videos on Vimeo it's because let's face it, we're all guys and us guys are a competitive lot. You'll see a vid on Vimeo and that 8 year old inside of you will be like, "I wanna do that too..."


Anyway buying cheaper gear is still expensive BUT it's less expensive than the popular options. I just dont want'cha to make the same idiotic choices as me. Eventually and like me, you will build your own gear.


When I started out on guitar I convinced myself that I needed a "brand name" guitar and a "brand name" amp to get the job done. I refused to touch any other brand, I wanted to arrive at band practice and flaunt that label on my headstock.

It made me feel more "professional" and it made me feel like I'd be taken more seriously by the other musicians around me.

Then I played and everyone laughed at me. I'm now an award winning guitarist and have worked as a composer professionally, so I can laugh about it now but back then, man, it shattered my pride.

Because I'm an idiot, I did exactly the same thing in my approach to DSLR filmmaking. Like I've already mentioned, I got a DSLR because I got sick of DOF adaptors. The DOF adaptor I had originally purchased cost around the same amount for a T2i. This makes me a dummy for ever using a video camera with a DOF adaptor.

However there are more pro's to using a video camera than a DSLR for filmmaking IMO. I'm stubborn, mastering my DSLR has become a personal vendetta because I've invested so much time and money into it. I'm determined to take this thing to the next level and I wont quit until I have.

 

[boulder]

LOL, TramaBunny is an apt name! It's all good dude.

 

[TraumaBunny]

At the end of the day your audience will only care about what they're seeing on screen. If they're entertained they wont care about the image quality. So if you're buying a DSLR for this purpose (image quality) and this purpose alone dont bother.

Why waste your hard earned money just to show off your garden or a parking-lot online? Nothing will come of it. I'm sorry but that isn't cinematography at all, it's merely a demonstration of DSLR image quality. That's all people are impressed about, the image quality first and the cinematography second.

Surely, it should be the other way around.

Take yourself back to the time when you didn't know a damned thing about DOF or even care about it.

Before I got into filmmaking I didn't care about DOF, I was concentrating on the movie instead. I wasn't like "oh wow, it looks so professional... oh wow look at that deep depth of field there... oh wow what an awesome tracking shot..." I just watched the film. This is what regular people do.

I keep this in mind when I make films, I think about my audience BUT because I'm an artist I want things to look and feel a certain way. I like being artful because I enjoy expressing myself, they wont care though, ultimately they'll either feel entertained by my work or hate it.

They're not gonna care about DOF, I care about DOF because I'm "arty farty" and self-indulgent. Look at that movie, The Blair Witch Project or that other movie Paranormal Activity, no depth of field shots, no fancy camera moves, did people care? No and those films made alot of money.

 

[robmneilson]

At the end of the day your audience will only care about what they're seeing on screen. If they're entertained they wont care about the image quality. So if you're buying a DSLR for this purpose (image quality) and this purpose alone dont bother.

Why waste your hard earned money just to show off your garden or a parking-lot online? Nothing will come of it. I'm sorry but that isn't cinematography at all, it's merely a demonstration of DSLR image quality. That's all people are impressed about, the image quality first and the cinematography second.

Surely, it should be the other way around.

Take yourself back to the time when you didn't know a damned thing about DOF or even care about it.

Before I got into filmmaking I didn't care about DOF, I was concentrating on the movie instead. I wasn't like "oh wow, it looks so professional... oh wow look at that deep depth of field there... oh wow what an awesome tracking shot..." I just watched the film. This is what regular people do.

I keep this in mind when I make films, I think about my audience BUT because I'm an artist I want things to look and feel a certain way. I like being artful because I enjoy expressing myself, they wont care though, ultimately they'll either feel entertained by my work or hate it.

They're not gonna care about DOF, I care about DOF because I'm "arty farty" and self-indulgent. Look at that movie, The Blair Witch Project or that other movie Paranormal Activity, no depth of field shots, no fancy camera moves, did people care? No and those films made alot of money.

I agree with you 100% however I really dislike when people bring up Blair Witch or Paranormal Activity since those movies premises exist on a gimmick, which is why crappy DV is totally acceptable.

 

[bwwd]

you dont know how big marketing blair witch had,i personally cant stand it ,i tried to watch it but i cant ,it looks like my holiday videos,i dont care that it made so much money,it looks fake and amateurish and i dont have time to see it.Also activity was shown as documentary too, its not the same league.So if you really think that you dont need shallow dof then why t2i and all equipment.
Its because t2i footage looks more like film ,why dont you bring all those movies shot on regular camcorders on youtube,are they succesfull ?Compare them to real movies.Theres millions of them and they look like shi*,nobody cares about them besides their creators because they look like something what anybody could shoot in their garden with their holiday sony handycam.Blair witch looks like that to me,thats why i dont care about it.

You didnt care about DOF huh ? hahah,its ridiculous, but you always seen the difference between your camera and movies,between tv news and movies ,between sport transmissions and movies,there was difference and you needed 2 seconds to know that OH its a MOVIE,its not tv news or sport or my holiday video.People recognize what is movie and whats not by the look of picture,films shot on handycms from youtube would not be recognized as movies.

 

[TraumaBunny]

I wont deny it, initially I was floored by the DSLR videos I saw online. Mostly Phillip Blooms work, I think he's great. This is how I got sucked in. I didn't want to be him or emulate him, he just inspired me. It was like hearing Megadeth's Rust in Piece album all over again and I can play every solo from that album note for note perfect.

This is what happens when I fall in love with things. I go mental. I'm over-the-top-creative.

I looked at my HV20 with it's DOF adaptor and was like "oh man, what have I been doing?" It's like Phillip Bloom had turned me on to metal music all over again.

lol dude when I got a DOF adaptor for the first time I was still trying to zoom while filming. I paid for flip-screen hacks and blah blah blah what a waste of money. No more grain, no more dramas.

I even went through an adobe-after-effects phase because of Andrew Kramers work until I realised that CG sucks. I was just trying to find cheaper solutions to making my visions real. I now buy or make props instead, they look better on screen and give actors something to react to. I'm not a pro so I'm using anyone I can find to perform in my films then I score them myself.

Music is a huge factor, once you've made your film you'll be looking for music. I can score things myself so I'm lucky but they'll always be a band or musician around who'll score something for free.

You'll go through all of these hardships yourself, you'll probably end up with exactly the same attitude as me. Part of you will reject what I'm saying because you're creative and determined to believe that a DSLR will turn you into Stanley Kubrick over night. It wont.

You'll soon get bored of HD, you may find it looks artificial and plastic. I'm trying to make my flims look like they're from the 70's so I'm a dummy for pursuing DSLR's, I've always loved that look long before Robert Rodriguez made it cool. You may even get bored of 24p too, I'm shooting in different frame rates these days. At first I was all over the 24p mode, then 25p, it didn't last.

As for lenses, here's what I do. I buy constant aperture zoom lenses. Pretty much every lens I've purchased is pre-owned. I'm lucky and found a "fast one", so I basically have 3 lenses rolled into one. This saves me having to change lenses while filming.

People say they're not as sharp as primes but it wont matter too much for video. I have a follow focus system so manual lenses aren't a problem.


I have a bunch of spare batteries which are fully charged for the day. Your camera will eat through that battery while you're shooting video, you'll need back ups.

As for flash cards I use any 16GB 133x I can find. I get 'em cheaper on ebay, sometimes you can find a used one.


The 7D over-heated on me alot. The T2i hasn't over-heated yet at all, it also has a better LCD screen.

The 7D is better for photography than the T2i but who cares, the video quality is identical and that's what I use it for. Bye bye 7D hello T2i *cha ching* more money spare for gear.

 

[bwwd]

lol youre shooting movies and you got bored with 24p,ok im done here.

 

[TraumaBunny]

I agree with you 100% however I really dislike when people bring up Blair Witch or Paranormal Activity since those movies premises exist on a gimmick, which is why crappy DV is totally acceptable.

I agree 100% and let's be honest, those movies sucked. However, they were entertaining and that's what people pay for.

They pay to be entertained, they got entertained so where's the problem? lol my bassist didn't sleep for a month after watching Paranormal Activity, I think he watched it on drugs... either way, it put the fear of God into him hahahaha we love teasing him about it.


I watched Survival of the Dead a few months ago, what a terrible film. What's happened to Romero? I own all of his fims, I'm a horror freak.

But these days horror films have turned into action-comedy films. I want horror back :-((( I watched I Spit On Your Grave again the other day, what an amazing film.

 

[TraumaBunny]

lol youre shooting movies and you got bored with 24p,ok im done here.

I never said I was bored, you said that and decided to get upset about it. See what happens when you make assumptions?

I film at 24p but I use other film rates for tracking shots and stuff because they're smoother.

I film at 30p alot for fast scenes, where's the problem? Fast stuff in 24p looks crap on a DSLR.

 

[TraumaBunny]

When I was all over 24p mode I was shooting at 1/50 and thinking I was "the man". I was doing everything in 24p and alot of it sucked. I played it back and it looked awful because the camera has a nervous breakdown if you push it too hard. I'm glad, I learned from it and pressed on.

I do whatever I can to remain in 1/50 while shooting 24p but sometimes I'll shoot at 1/30 but only if I have to. Sometimes, not even that makes a difference. That's when I'll use a different frame rate or have to re-write my scene completely to make up for it.

That's the camera's fault not mine lol

30p has a bad rap, it's great. I use it alot!