anatusa
Veteran
too bad that Odyssey cant do what original Sony "add ons" will : 4k up to 60p , and slow motion 120 fps for 4sec
http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/press/pr-nab-2013-hxr-ifr5
http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/press/pr-nab-2013-hxr-ifr5
The SONY FS-700 & The Odyssey7 - Let´s hope to see some affordable HQ-Output!
- Thread starter mediaplexx
- Start date
paulcurtis
Veteran
I would guess it's early days for the Odyssey, the questions right now are more about what can be output physically by the camera. If Sony can get 4K 60fps out of it then i don't understand why the Odyssey couldn't get that. If the odyssey can get 2K 240fps sustained then the overhead/bandwidth for that cannot be far removed from 4k 60p.
Reading between the lines i get the impression that this is all quite new for CD as they only had it working a few weeks ago.
However frames rates are not that important to me. I want to see samples, resolution and dynamic range.
I'd guess though that taking a still with the 700 might show more about what the sensor can do without waiting for these devices. That's only just occurred to me
cheers
Paul
paulcurtis
Veteran
codecs are compressors, so are we using the term interchangeably with RAW? I believe that we can record the RAW uncompressed (decompressed) output to a file. But i am unsure what the resulting file format would be just yet.
I think perhaps, being pedantic, that codec is the wrong term and should be 'recording option'.
And are they 700 specific or Sony RAW? In other words once they are captured what is used to debayer the files, especially if it's a 700 specific 'container', so i would imagine the resulting files are more universal than something specific to the 700.
cheers
paul
For those valid questions above we need Dan Keaton to clarify for us. At the moment it looks like FS700 owner shell out for Sony firmware upgrade, 7Q the unit it self and FS700 recording option(codec option) in order to get 4K in high frames in Raw.
For those on floor of NAB Please keep us updated regarding firmware $$ and codec option $$$
For those on floor of NAB Please keep us updated regarding firmware $$ and codec option $$$
Agreed, and it's quite baffling. Can this because Sony has refused to grant BMD the rights to E-mount or something?
paulcurtis
Veteran
I believe Sony are happy for others to use it, although perhaps that's only for the lens mount side, maybe they reign in the camera mount side a bit. But even so, a Leica M mount or Canon M mount would be fine. Or just come up with their own and supply adapters with the camera.
cheers
paul
paulcurtis
Veteran
I just added on the other thread, there's a product brief from Sony on vimeo.
It states that the Odessey records 2K CinemaDNG and 4K DPX. 2k up to 240fps and 4K to 30 fps.
The Sony solution records 4K up to 60 fps onto their R5. This format is 16 bit linear RAW.
I have no idea why DPX and DNG, perhaps there's no 4K DNG format. There's also no indication what colour depth the camera is outputting. Now the interesting thing is that DPX is not a RAW format, so it does suggest that the Odessey is debayering, which is the limiting 30fps factor.
That seems a shame, obviously the camera is chucking out 4k at 60 fps but perhaps the Odessey is only allowed to produce 4K debayered files unlike Sony themselves?
cheers
paul
It states that the Odessey records 2K CinemaDNG and 4K DPX. 2k up to 240fps and 4K to 30 fps.
The Sony solution records 4K up to 60 fps onto their R5. This format is 16 bit linear RAW.
I have no idea why DPX and DNG, perhaps there's no 4K DNG format. There's also no indication what colour depth the camera is outputting. Now the interesting thing is that DPX is not a RAW format, so it does suggest that the Odessey is debayering, which is the limiting 30fps factor.
That seems a shame, obviously the camera is chucking out 4k at 60 fps but perhaps the Odessey is only allowed to produce 4K debayered files unlike Sony themselves?
cheers
paul
brotherian
Member
This is a product I would love to see. As self-shooter I'm both attracted to the Odyssey 7Q for it's features but put off by its bulk and size. An EVF/digital recorder is something I could really get behind and would keep the weight down on the rig. Recorders with monitors built-in are starting to come into maturity now, surely it can't be long for an EVF-style digital recorder can it?
It could be Sony placing a limit so as to not take away from their own solution.
evilthought
Well-known member
It's compressed RAW, jus like on F5, F55, and F65 RAW. Compressed RAW is very good thing, and isn't that why Red is suing Sony?
stefanhuberfilms
Veteran
paulcurtis
Veteran
Could be. But i do remember a sony product brief last year where the said that they saw the AXR solution as a rental option for 700 owners. So they could be looking at it like that. We don't have a price for that interface unit yet do we?
cheers
paul
stefanhuberfilms
Veteran
tvtechnology says that the price will be around 2000$... source: http://www.tvtechnology.com/article...elopment-of-k-raw-recording-interface-/216148
evilthought
Well-known member
I heard around $2000 last year, but it may go down or up (unlikely up).
paulcurtis
Veteran
To price up the sony 4K solution then would be (and correct me if i'm wrong)
Interface: £1500 (guess)
Recorder: £4600
Media Card: £1400 (1 x 512)
Reader for Card : £450
So that's near enough £8k ($12k) (inc tax/vat) excluding whatever the cost of the firmware update is.
All we know about the Odessey is that the recorder is $2300 plus special SSD ('competitive pricing') plus codec support cost.
The frustrating thing is that to record that compressed raw signal out of the 700 to drives and the decompress and debayer in software afterwards really shouldn't be too difficult. You're talking about recording 3.5Gbps maximum. Whilst that might be on the edge of SSD performance you can certainly do that if Sony would allow it (which they obviously don't). However all these solutions seem to involve decompressing the signal, translating it and making it larger and then recording/compressing it...
cheers
paul
evilthought
Well-known member
There is no proof for that claim that Sony doesn't allow it. It's far more likely that Odyssey7Q doesn't have strong enough processor to handle the data
paulcurtis
Veteran
My point is that just dumping the compressed RAW signal down onto SSDs shouldn't require any overhead. The issue for the Odyssey is that it is a monitor and so they *have* to decompress the full signal so they can debayer it, then display it and then re record it.
I believe there is licensing involved between CD and Sony, i'm sure i read that in one of the many posts, i very much doubt the compressed output is 'open', would be great if it was because you'd be able to slap a shuttle on the back and record onto that (assuming blackmagic designed one for the 700)
The Odyssey seems like the most sensible route still, looking forward to hearing the details. I also note that there's be no mention of whether the Odyssey would also work with F5 and F55. It would make for a nice long term investment that could be moved between cameras.
I also like the fact that i think the Odyssey will record to the other codec options even if you've not unlocked them but with some kind of watermark. One of the reasons is that camera tests and experiments really shouldn't have to rent a codec and the watermark would be fine for tests. I hope this is true.
cheers
Paul
You may be right, the 7Q specs state it can only do 4 1080p30 streams at a time.
But one of the guys in the videos stated it uses an FPGA, which is why they can reprogram it for so many different codecs so easily. It makes me wonder if they wouldn't be able to remove free up space on the FPGA by removing everything but the Sony codec. Have it so that when it writes out to the SSD, it only does it in a light codec, like CinemaDNG, maybe ProRes, not sure how light that is though, but only 1 choice.
I was hoping the Odyssey7Q would be a good alternative solution to Sony's recorder... but I'm a bit worried of all the extra charges/rentals for recording.
On their PDF, they list a bunch of 7Q features as "extra cost options". Does this mean that paying $xxx for recording functionality doesn't necessarily include high-speed recording? And it will cost $xxx more to enable that? Sounds like you're going to get nickled-and-dimed. Hopefully that's not the case but until I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume it is.
On their PDF, they list a bunch of 7Q features as "extra cost options". Does this mean that paying $xxx for recording functionality doesn't necessarily include high-speed recording? And it will cost $xxx more to enable that? Sounds like you're going to get nickled-and-dimed. Hopefully that's not the case but until I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume it is.