The New F

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It would be really easy for Jim Jannard to say the announcement has been delayed in order to give those affected by hurricane Sandy a fair shot at placing orders. No one wants to name their price drop first.
 
Barry_Green said:
Perhaps, but I would go so far as to say that making a camera that people actually want to buy, with all the stats people want, and actually listening to the customer and building what the customer wants, and pricing it competitively, sure haven't been Sony's style either! :D

As Jim says, "Everything is subject to change." Maybe (hopefully) they've changed for the better, in lots of ways.

Well, they did actually announce "a" price, Canon announced it would be "under $20,000". So not quite the same thing.
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Agreed. It all looks very good from where I sit - manufacturers falling over themselves to please their customers by giving them the tools they want at a price they can afford without having to donate an organ.
 
Why do people think Cooke had anything to do with these lenses? Sony has been making lenses for years. They bought Minolta. They don't need Cooke to do it.
 
Typical Sony Marketing.
Release new products OFFICIALLY and have no PRICELIST.
According my humble calculations camera like F5 inluding Evf,batteries etc, etc will be at least $25,000 and F55 will be $40,000. Thats without 4k $10,000 Sony External recorder. . . And do not forger Panasonic will be releasing Modular Camera soon..
 
Well since Able Cine cant give us any....
Imagine huge profits for your company next 12 months...
Get that calculator working Mitch...
 
avro said:
Typical Sony Marketing.
Release new products OFFICIALLY and have no PRICELIST.
According my humble calculations camera like F5 inluding Evf,batteries etc, etc will be at least $25,000 and F55 will be $40,000. Thats without 4k $10,000 Sony External recorder. . . And do not forger Panasonic will be releasing Modular Camera soon..
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There's good reason to beleive the reason we haven't been given prices has everything to do with RED boldly announcing that they will drop prices on the EPIC on November 1st - for reasons unrelated to Sony, if you beleive Jim Jannard.

My personal opinion is that Sony originally intended to announce pricing today, but has chosen to withhold that information in an effort to make RED "shoot first."

Essentially, they're trying to make RED guess, and whatever RED guesses, Sony has the power to undercut them if they like.

Neither company will want to announce first. It's a duel.
 
This is not the first time Sony has announced a product which would ship some months later and stated that the price would be announced later on. Sony has been at this a lot longer than RED.
 
avro said:
Typical Sony Marketing.
Release new products OFFICIALLY and have no PRICELIST.
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Same thing Canon did. They had a whole event and introduced the C300, and didn't give an actual price for like three months. And the C500, I think we waited even longer.

There will be prices before there's products to order.

Frankly, I'd much rather have the product be available before I worry about the price. The BMC launched the price first, and there's still no product. If I can't buy the product at all (because it's not out yet), what does it matter what the price is?

(that said, yes I'd love to know the range they're targeting too, but it's strictly academic at this point)
 
Bloom says $18,000 for f5 body and $50,000 for f55.
That makes F5 at least $25,000 camera. Right Mitch?
 
Barry_Green said:
Same thing Canon did. They had a whole event and introduced the C300, and didn't give an actual price for like three months. And the C500, I think we waited even longer.

There will be prices before there's products to order.

Frankly, I'd much rather have the product be available before I worry about the price. The BMC launched the price first, and there's still no product. If I can't buy the product at all (because it's not out yet), what does it matter what the price is?

(that said, yes I'd love to know the range they're targeting too, but it's strictly academic at this point)
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Not true. They mentioned $20,000 on release day.
 
avro said:
Bloom says $18,000 for f5 body and $50,000 for f55.
That makes F5 at least $25,000 camera. Right Mitch?
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This is an instance where I'm not inclined to take Phillip Bloom's word as the gospel. He's a shooter, yes, but he's also essentially a tech blogger, and best as I can tell, in this case he's just repeating rumor. Even Ned, who was under NDA has indicated that Sony's not released *any* pricing info.

Right now, the person who probably has the best idea about the "New F" pricing is Jim Jannard. Whatever price he announces for the EPIC is what Sony's going to have to beat.
 
Viddovation said:
Essentially, they're trying to make RED guess, and whatever RED guesses, Sony has the power to undercut them if they like.

Neither company will want to announce first. It's a duel.
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Y'know, I'm not so sure Sony will set their prices in relation to Red. Sony has extensive history in manufacturing, they have dealer structures in place, there's a lot more infrastructure that they have to deal with, I don't think they're nearly as freewheeling as Red. Whereas Red, with no dealers to answer to, and no stockholders to answer to, can make up a number out of thin air. So while I absolutely believe that Red timed their announcement because (I feel) they intended to price their Epic competitively against the new Sony, I doubt that Sony will do much to change their numbers at this point. The products have been developed with a certain price bracket in mind, and while there might be a little wiggle room for them, I doubt there's a lot of wiggle room.

So yes, I'm sure Sony wants Red to go first, just as I'm certain Red expected/wanted Sony to go first. I think if Sony had come out with the F55 at a crazy price, like $20k, then I think Red could have responded with a crazier price, like $18k for the Epic. But now the situation's in reverse, and Red has a date they said they'd meet, so they have to go first. So let's say Sony has been planning on the F55 being $35k (random number, also the price of the Epic). If Red cuts the Epic to $32k, I think Sony could, maybe, match it. But what if Red does something wacky like slashin the Epic in half, to $18k. Will Sony then slash their F55 to $18k? I sincerely doubt they could do that. They might have 10% or so room, but half? Not with their infrastructure, dealer situation, existing product lineup, etc...

So with the situation in reverse, it leaves Red in a bit of a tricky spot. How much profit do they discard, perhaps unnecessarily?

Furthermore -- they can't just wait it out. Sony said they'd release pricing in a few weeks. Red already acknowledged they weren't going to be selling many (if any) cameras between the 27th and tomorrow already. I know "everything changes" but can they really leave the announcement dangling for two weeks, knowing people won't be buying any new Red products during those two weeks? Not likely.

So either way it goes, I think Sony has played it pretty well here. It leaves Red painted in a corner. Of course, there's a simple way out -- Red can announce whatever they think is a reasonable price, and go with it... and two weeks later, when Sony announces their final pricing, if it's lower than anticipated, Red can always say "hey, guess what, we're gonna cut prices again, and give rebates to everyone who bought between Oct. 31 and today".
 
Barry_Green said:
Y'know, I'm not so sure Sony will set their prices in relation to Red. Sony has extensive history in manufacturing, they have dealer structures in place, there's a lot more infrastructure that they have to deal with, I don't think they're nearly as freewheeling as Red. Whereas Red, with no dealers to answer to, and no stockholders to answer to, can make up a number out of thin air. So while I absolutely believe that Red timed their announcement because (I feel) they intended to price their Epic competitively against the new Sony, I doubt that Sony will do much to change their numbers at this point. The products have been developed with a certain price bracket in mind, and while there might be a little wiggle room for them, I doubt there's a lot of wiggle room.

So yes, I'm sure Sony wants Red to go first, just as I'm certain Red expected/wanted Sony to go first. I think if Sony had come out with the F55 at a crazy price, like $20k, then I think Red could have responded with a crazier price, like $18k for the Epic. But now the situation's in reverse, and Red has a date they said they'd meet, so they have to go first. So let's say Sony has been planning on the F55 being $35k (random number, also the price of the Epic). If Red cuts the Epic to $32k, I think Sony could, maybe, match it. But what if Red does something wacky like slashin the Epic in half, to $18k. Will Sony then slash their F55 to $18k? I sincerely doubt they could do that. They might have 10% or so room, but half? Not with their infrastructure, dealer situation, existing product lineup, etc...

So with the situation in reverse, it leaves Red in a bit of a tricky spot. How much profit do they discard, perhaps unnecessarily?

Furthermore -- they can't just wait it out. Sony said they'd release pricing in a few weeks. Red already acknowledged they weren't going to be selling many (if any) cameras between the 27th and tomorrow already. I know "everything changes" but can they really leave the announcement dangling for two weeks, knowing people won't be buying any new Red products during those two weeks? Not likely.

So either way it goes, I think Sony has played it pretty well here. It leaves Red painted in a corner. Of course, there's a simple way out -- Red can announce whatever they think is a reasonable price, and go with it... and two weeks later, when Sony announces their final pricing, if it's lower than anticipated, Red can always say "hey, guess what, we're gonna cut prices again, and give rebates to everyone who bought between Oct. 31 and today".
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Barry, that's some real Game of Thrones stuff right there.

I concede this match. The field is yours, Tyrion Lannister!
 
The facebook chat keeps talking about "planned targets" when referring to features such as "14 stops of dynamic range" and "native iso 2000". What does this mean by "planned target"?

Does this mean that these are merely paper launches and that Sony has yet proven that they can reliably mass produce these?
 
Viddovation said:
Barry, that's some real Game of Thrones stuff right there.

I concede this match. The field is yours, Tyrion Lannister!
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We'll see how well RED has managed their cash flow and credit over the years to see how well they can weather the storm. Being a private company, we don't know the cash and credit position of RED. If they are positive cash wise, then they can use debt to tie them over for the next couple of years in order to figure out this new Sony obstacle.

On the flip side, Sony as a whole is on their last leg, with the broadcast division being the healthiest of their three pillars.

Depending on how badly Sony wants this, they still can leverage their other divisions and implement cost cutting to take back the Cinema world.

All this posturing creates market uncertainty which is not good for the industry in the short term as it creates a vaccuum in the economy, not good for anyone. They are better off releasing prices sooner than later so us consumers can start spending again.
 
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I'm not going to comment on price because it is not my place to do so. Sony has not yet announced pricing and ANYONE publishing a price is doing so based on information that is not fact. Knowing the people involved at Sony, they plan to be competitive, at least to a degree. But we will all know soon enough.
 
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