The New F

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morgan_moore said:
Indeed. But the BMC and the FS700 have set the benchmark of 'what this stuff costs' in terms of pure tech, Id pay 3-4 times that amount to get it in a nicer package
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It's worth noting the BMC is backordered. They can't match supply to demand. But the specs of the BMC and FS700 don't match RED EPIC, Alexa, the F65, or what we're anitipating in the new F. Yes, the FS700 does slomotion - but only in bursts. And the BMC is so decidely modular, you can't really call it just a $3000 investment.

But tech prices will come down over time. That's true.

That said, I personally don't relish living in a world where the perfect camera costs $3,000. Why? Because when the barrier of entry is that low, rates will plummet, because undiscerning clients will have 1st year film students, $3k camera in hand, offering to do the work essentially for free.

There's the research and development cost of a camera, and then there is the cost of components. The more units you make, the more you amortize the cost of the R&D across each unit. But that only brings down the cost of a camera if enough people buy it.

Honestly, I don't mind paying $25k for the right camera, so long as I'm confident my clients will keep paying the rate.
 
morgan_moore said:
A further thought 'professional cred'.. it is alway critical to have a 'better' camera than your employers uncle.
So if an NEx5n has 60p you have to have 120p etc
(however badly limited the version from the consumer cam is)
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The Sony F3 has uncompressed 1080 60p output. The KiPro Quad is only $4k.
 
Viddovation said:
I I don't mind paying $25k for the right camera, so long as I'm confident my clients will keep paying the rate.
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Coming from stills* I suggest that keeping a grip on your prices through anything but selling your creative skill is cloud cuckoo land.


* I have a strong standpoint on that view - remember I bought $20k stills cams once, 16mp ones, about the same spec as the Nex5n as it happens
Im trying to help/warn the video people here to be careful with cash unless you have an super solid business model based on 12month ownership

"Your camera does slomo like my Nex5 if you we rent an extra box?" client giggles
 
Seems like the cam needs to be priced aggressively. At every level of production these days from the biggest to the smallest everyone is being told to do more with less. Sony is essentially competing with a bunch of different cameras. The c300 being a primary one that has cornered the super35mm broadcast market. So you need to price this camera better than the c300. Plain and simple. Even if it offers way, way more...as it should offer way, way more. In the 4k indy cinema land they are competing against the scarlet. Beat that price as well, which I essentially consider to be the same price as the c300 and you have a winner. Decide your camera needs to cost more because it offers more is the old school thinking and you will alienate many owner/operators. Price based on the market and competition, not based on old conventions or the current cameras you sell. The closer this cam is to 10 grand instead of 20 the customers will shoot through the roof like rockets. This is a replacement for the f3. Keep the pricing essentially the same is what every customer should be asking.
 
I don´t think it will be only one camera!
Maybe one placed exactly between F65 und F3 and another one a bit cheaper. The 4 K recorder is missing, too.
 
morgan_moore said:
"Your camera does slomo like my Nex5 if you we rent an extra box?" client giggles
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Sounds like we have different clients Morgan. And it's worth noting the F3 does uncompressed 1080 60p, not the highly compressed material you'll find on the Nex5. Generally, the clients I work with have no trouble understanding the difference in capability between a consumer stills camera and a $14k cinema camera. I certainly don't envy your problem!

Creative skill, not to mention wisdom, counts for plenty. But when all differences in who to hire are reduced to "creative skill," - a very subjective quality I might add - it makes for a rather wild west of a marketplace. I too am concerned by how quickly the digital market is moving, and obsoleting itself, hence I've put the majority of my investment in glass, not my camera.

"You mean your 50mm Arri Ultra Prime costs $13k? My Nex5 has a 50mm that costs $200!" is just as silly a comparison. If a client ever suggested either to me, I'd remind them that both a Bently and a Honda can go 50 miles per hour, if you please.
 
I've been reluctant to chime in on the speculation but with a few people who've seen the camera confirming a few suspicions I figure I'll drop in a few hopes, especially after Ned teased the "Think Different" idea.

Instead of merely capturing the Scarlet and C300 market, perhaps Sony is aiming too, at the Alexa. With ARRI's impressive ability to record 12 bit ProRes4444 files to SxS pro cards perhaps Sony figured out a profitable way to do the same.
This would be incredibly appealing to me. And I wouldn't need 4K, I'd be very satisfied with scaling down from a 3.5K sensor to 2K.

Keep S-Log, add high speed, a competitive price point, and I'm in.

Super bonus: a 4:3 sensor that windows down to 16:9 so I can have the option to shoot with anamorphic lenses. And an optical viewfinder : )
 
Viddovation said:
Sounds like we have different clients Morgan. And it's worth noting the F3 does uncompressed 1080 60p, not the highly compressed material you'll find on the Nex5. Generally, the clients I work with have no trouble understanding the difference in capability between a consumer stills camera and a $14k cinema camera. I certainly don't envy your problem!

Creative skill, not to mention wisdom, counts for plenty. But when all differences in who to hire are reduced to "creative skill," - a very subjective quality I might add - it makes for a rather wild west of a marketplace. I too am concerned by how quickly the digital market is moving, and obsoleting itself, hence I've put the majority of my investment in glass, not my camera.

"You mean your 50mm Arri Ultra Prime costs $13k? My Nex5 has a 50mm that costs $200!" is just as silly a comparison. If a client ever suggested either to me, I'd remind them that both a Bently and a Honda can go 50 miles per hour, if you please.
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Im fully aware that the Nex5n60p is a sack of shXt
Your Ultraprime - my $200 nikkor 50 1.2 - well thats a different chat
But $500 camcorders have slomo burst, gopros have 120, it does influence client thinking- its got to
Like the 5d2 - it looks very very cool and must have had a big dent for some rocking $30-50k ENG cams
Yep the 5d2 is a PITA for a million reasons - but it does look cool - no doubt

And IMO the market place is becoming a wild west fast - good or bad - not my choice

I mean in the UK everything is C300 - F3 - 5d - what happened to all those ENG monsters? (and bloody fine cams they are too)

I promise in three years you will only have two things to sell
-creative skill
-ability to deliver (and yes that requires kit - batts mics whatever)

You might hang on to those clients for while - or not - there is a timelag particularly higher up the chain

For example we have clients that adhere to union rates here.. other unions! But I think the west is gonna get wild..

S
 
Well now that I fully know about the cameras, I must say I feel like Sony's pretty much sitting on everyone's heads. Fell free to add an extra H to the word sitting, it would also be appropriate. They're doing what Canon should have done for the price of the C300 and C500.

Someone here said something about targeting Alexa... I kinda don't think the F65 is that camera... but I do think that what's about to drop definitely does.

Pretty impressed, myself... and, I am not a SONY fan... seems they're really trying to put everyone in their place these days.

=T Being broke sucks.

P.S. Before anyone asks, I dug through someone's trash as usual.

Edit 2: I think I'm finally gonna be a Sony convert, as well... pretty terrifying...
 
Kholi said:
I think I'm finally gonna be a Sony convert, as well... pretty terrifying...
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Sony started the whole digital ball rolling in the late 90's at their High Definition Center at Culver City. They have incredible resources, and there's no doubt they can produce amazing electronics when they want to. But they're like an aircraft carrier that's really slow to turn. Maybe being broke has changed that and we'll see what they can do when the chips are down.

Cheers.
 
If we follow the trend of Sony, the "new F" will come with compressed 4K with a paid firmware upgrade to get RAW out to a paid external recorder.

And being 4K, there is also probably and additional paid add-on for some dedicated PCI-E card to help play it back in real time on your computer.

AND, they will have another paid add-on for a television that can display 4K.
 
Viddovation said:
It's worth noting the BMC is backordered. They can't match supply to demand. But the specs of the BMC and FS700 don't match RED EPIC, Alexa, the F65, or what we're anitipating in the new F. Yes, the FS700 does slomotion - but only in bursts. And the BMC is so decidely modular, you can't really call it just a $3000 investment.

But tech prices will come down over time. That's true.

That said, I personally don't relish living in a world where the perfect camera costs $3,000. Why? Because when the barrier of entry is that low, rates will plummet, because undiscerning clients will have 1st year film students, $3k camera in hand, offering to do the work essentially for free.

There's the research and development cost of a camera, and then there is the cost of components. The more units you make, the more you amortize the cost of the R&D across each unit. But that only brings down the cost of a camera if enough people buy it.

Honestly, I don't mind paying $25k for the right camera, so long as I'm confident my clients will keep paying the rate.
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On the flip side, if you champion Style over Gear, then it doesn't matter what camera or fancy equipment you buy. And by logical extension, it won't matter how much some film student undercuts you in terms of pricing.
 
ectobuilder said:
On the flip side, if you champion Style over Gear, then it doesn't matter what camera or fancy equipment you buy. And by logical extension, it won't matter how much some film student undercuts you in terms of pricing.
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Forgive me if that sounds like a gross oversimplification. Craft is vital. I beleive this, and I hone mine. For me, this is a business, not a hobby. If it were a hobby, I'd probably just own a Canon T3i, and some Home Depot worklights.

Just as different artists choose different brushes to acheive different effects on the canvas, so does the choice of a camera, it's support equipment, and lighting, acheive wildly different effects in the frame.

Where we may disagree is that I'm perfectly okay that the "brushes" in our industry aren't dirt cheap.

I'm also comfortable with the idea that as an owner operator I can leverage opportunities that I might otherwise miss out on.

It is certainly a valid path to not own gear, and rent everything as the client needs it. In my market, I've found it far more lucrative to be an owner operator. I can certainly respect if your experience has been different.
 
Viddovation said:
Where we may disagree is that I'm perfectly okay that the "brushes" in our industry aren't dirt cheap.
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Its fair if a brush is not cheap but be very sure that clients need a certain brush will go for the cheapest brush that does the job..

If it a 50MBs 'brush' then they will go with a C300, not an F35

The rental price of a 50 mbs brush is defined by the cheapest 50 mbs brush

You just dont wanna buy an F35 if it is not paid off by the time the C300 is out.. some did .. some didnt

S
 
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Thanks Kholi.

If it's really 2 cameras, then I hope they differentiate them by resolution: 4k for the high end, 1080 for the low end. That way, the majority of us who don't need 4k won't have to pay for it.
 
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