C300: The New Canon C300 Mark III and New 25 - 250mm Zoom Lens

[morgan_moore]

What gets me is the lack of imagination. 1.5 converer in 17-120 not only would it bring range.. but also improve close focus.

The show I shot with one it 40% of the time on the ground catching grime and waiting to be stolen as I had to shoot ECUs (eye and mouth) of every contributor.

Gee the $800 (?) iphone has three cameras. I never worked out why the fs7 or 9 could not bolt on the rx0 in an intergrated manner to bring a wide backup

I was on a job the other day and the 2/3 guy (praobably with a 4.5->xx) was flying a go pro on a tragic arm.

 

[Run&Gun]

What gets me is the lack of imagination. 1.5 converer in 17-120 not only would it bring range.. but also improve close focus.

The show I shot with one it 40% of the time on the ground catching grime and waiting to be stolen as I had to shoot ECUs (eye and mouth) of every contributor.

Gee the $800 (?) iphone has three cameras. I never worked out why the fs7 or 9 could not bolt on the rx0 in an intergrated manner to bring a wide backup

I was on a job the other day and the 2/3 guy (praobably with a 4.5->xx) was flying a go pro on a tragic arm.

At the time, the only other real option in that class was the Fuji 19-90 and it smoked it on both ends, so they had already won that battle. They were probably trying to be as competitive as possible on price and weight, too. An extender would have added more mass to an already pig of a lens and probably at least another $5K. Built-in extenders fetch a large premium on 2/3” ENG lenses. In the past, I’ve seen price differences from at least $5K and up for lenses with and without extenders. Which is another reason that I’m so surprised with the initial price of the 25-250. Not only is it a 10x s35 full servo lens that only ramps about a stop, but it has a built-in extender, too.

 

[Guest]

What gets me is the lack of imagination. 1.5 converer in 17-120 not only would it bring range.. but also improve close focus.

The show I shot with one it 40% of the time on the ground catching grime and waiting to be stolen as I had to shoot ECUs (eye and mouth) of every contributor.

Gee the $800 (?) iphone has three cameras. I never worked out why the fs7 or 9 could not bolt on the rx0 in an intergrated manner to bring a wide backup

I was on a job the other day and the 2/3 guy (praobably with a 4.5->xx) was flying a go pro on a tragic arm.

I totally see your point!

Also, an extender is pretty much expected of ENG style lenses. Maybe not years past, and not of s35 zooms, but definitely of 2/3” zooms in the last 15years.

I can’t argue with you in the hypothetical druthers, just in terms of which existing lense, and i would swing for a 25-250 over a 17-120. However, i agree with you, that s35 gets the short end of the stick. Not sure if it is design compromise or just business practice, but Canon could have had a near classic had the 17-120 had an extender.

Would be nice if a 20-200 or 18-180 +1.5x existed, as that seems to be the magic middle. Might be pricey if it were any good though.

It is frustrating having to buy tools that producers hate. They want to move at speed of thought, and when i have to switch a lens, it kills the vibe sometimes.

I do believe it is easier to switch to ultra wide on a whim, because i can be anywhere, tripod or no, and just pop on a small wide prime or short zoom, and go. Whereas switching to a longer lens, everything has to be in order. And if i am trying to catching something that i maybe can’t reach or is disappearing, having that reach at a moments notice is more spontaneously needed. Whereas if i am on a wide, i generally have time and permission to be there.

But yeah, i can see how the normal range is better for doc or epk and what not. Hell, a 10-300mm would be nice. I can’t deny that 17-120 is the more normal range. And to be honest, i’d know how i would work with a 25-250 if i had a producer hovering.
“Wider! Wider”
“I’ll have to swing a lens”
- awkward pause
“Ok”
- swap lens in under 10seconds, shooting again
“Tighter, tighter”
“I’ll have to swap a lens”
- awkward silence
“Ok”
Haha. 25mm on fast paced shoots is an annoying cut off for many. but, if i was working with producers on those kinds of shoots, i’d prefer a 14-140mm, and i would settle for a 17-120mm.

17-120mm + 1.5x would be a killer lens. As we move into mirrorless s35, i am hoping that we see more long zoom options, that perhaps semi compete with B4 2/3” of yore.

What might be more interesting to me, than science fiction lenses, is real life cellphone tech being put into 2/3” broadcast cameras. Face filters for interviews, that would help take the edge off of some people’s complexion. I’d rather have modern features on a 2/3” camera with a nice light weight 2/3” b4 super zoom. Just sayin’. We get so caught up in what’s in front of us, that i think we forget what is actually easier and possibly better.

 

[Guest]

I'm skeptical of claim of 16 stops of DR... but even if it gives *true* 14 or 14.5 stops....with really good AF & multiple codecs... this could be a real winner... and agree about the dual pixel exposure...

Based on the “Tall Story” review, i’d think it is going to feel like a solid 14stops camera. Which it had better, if a pro camera wants to have any legs, that is kind of the minimum. Maybe not today, but next year it will be, and anything that doesn’t have it will be in the past.

The C500ii just gets into that territory. A little weak in the shadows.

In the tall story review, the guy mentioned “best highlight roll off of any C series”. So, i’d imagine it to have similar highlight performance to the C500ii. The shadows are looking to be noticeably cleaner. Which seems to help when needing to underexpose for the highlights. The C3003 is looking to be challenging to the Red Gemini. Although, the Gemini still beats the Canon in a few small ways, and was two years sooner to the market, but if buying next year, i’d probably recommend the C3003 over a Gemini, as the Canon may end up being at the same level. And better in some ways too. Internal ND anyone?

One option i hope to see in the C3003 is being able to turn off DGO for better RS performance on demand.

 

[markfpv]

Based on the “Tall Story” review, i’d think it is going to feel like a solid 14stops camera.... In the tall story review, the guy mentioned “best highlight roll off of any C series”. So, i’d imagine it to have similar highlight performance to the C500ii. The shadows are looking to be noticeably cleaner. Which seems to help when needing to underexpose for the highlights..

Yes - I've heard it said now.... just would like to see some footage that really shows it. I skimmed through some of that video and didn't see anything... is there outdoor footage with large contrast shots in there from dark shade to bright whites... as opposed to very controlled interview set up?

 

[Guest]

Yes - I've heard it said now.... just would like to see some footage that really shows it. I skimmed through some of that video and didn't see anything... is there outdoor footage with large contrast shots in there from dark shade to bright whites... as opposed to very controlled interview set up?

No. Ridiculous right? The tall story guys said “we didn’t have time...” WHAT!?! That would be the main thing i would test.

And all of the higher contrast stuff is 120fps. So, just hilarious. The C3003 two top selling features cannot be displayed at the same time. Right now, i am sure they are more about showing off slomo, as the C3003 doesn’t look to be an Arri killer, and fps has been a sore spot for many.

 

[Barry G]

just would like to see some footage that really shows it. I skimmed through some of that video and didn't see anything... is there outdoor footage with large contrast shots in there from dark shade to bright whites... as opposed to very controlled interview set up?

I'd say that the window shot DR test with the dark detail next to it shows more DR than most exterior situations (My C500II can handle exterior shadows with no problem). The way I like to explain it is this. Go into a narrow alley with sun shining brightly along one side of it. Put your subject into the shadows, and include the sunlit side, and sky in your shot. That's about the most DR you're going to get in an exterior shot without the sun in the shot, right? Now....build a roof and walls around your subject and cut a small window to allow for the camera to see the same sunlit background and sky. The subject is no longer lit by skylight or ambient bounce, and the DR increases by 1-2 stops easily. It's obvious from that test in the video that the shadows are vastly cleaner (not sure they are better than what you could do with NR, but they are cleaner). DR is measured in various ways, but it always comes down to the number of stops from highlight saturation to a certain S/N ratio in the shadows. What we aren't seeing in this test is whether the highlights are improving as well. My guess is that's because they aren't.

 

[Ben_Ericson]

No. Ridiculous right? The tall story guys said “we didn’t have time...” WHAT!?! That would be the main thing i would test.

And all of the higher contrast stuff is 120fps. So, just hilarious. The C3003 two top selling features cannot be displayed at the same time. Right now, i am sure they are more about showing off slomo, as the C3003 doesn’t look to be an Arri killer, and fps has been a sore spot for many.

Exactly. I do know the "Dear Diary Day 21" film was shot in xf-avc, not raw. I'm assuming Log2 but he didn't say.

Couple things I wonder.

- Are the purple streaks / colored noise completely gone in Log2? Luma noise has never been an issue with the C300ii, but the colored noise definitely has.

- Is there any sharpness or added detail when comparing the C300ii to the C300iii.

 

[morgan_moore]

.. i would swing for a 25-250 over a 17-120. ..

..20-200 or 18-180 .. can’t deny that 17-120 is the more normal range. And to be honest,.. 25-250 i.. producer hovering.
..17-120mm + 1.5x would be a killer lens. ..4 2/3” of yore.

... I’d rather have modern features on a 2/3” ..b4 super zoom.

I always want to start wide, you can push in with zoom, doublers or digital pushin.

I think it manufactuers problem - there are load of 18-200 and the like for £500 - what could they do for £3000.

Or a 2/3 camera with log 10/12 bit and HFR the size of an EVA.. id have that

S

 

[Clermond]

Exactly. I do know the "Dear Diary Day 21" film was shot in xf-avc, not raw. I'm assuming Log2 but he didn't say.

he said Log3 which made me wonder.
I didn't like the DDD21 too much. Skins are a bit too pink and too saturated, same as the red dress. The sky in some outdoor shots looks weird. Like pulled back clipped highlights and added a blue tone. Did you see the "10 best new features" video from the same guy? I hope that's the lighting or something else and not the camera that made these skin tones. [Sorry Drazen if you are reading this]

 

[Guest]

200 -poor mans cam
300 - doc cam
500 - cine cam

C200 poor man's cam. Bcam
C3003 - doc, cine vérité
C5002 - Art/Fashion/doc/cine vérité

Something about Canon cameras that just don't immediately say "cinema" to me. Red and BM just cross over. And maybe Red does because they snuck in early and established a look with Fincher and many others. Other than 'Blue is the Warmest Color', I haven't really liked the C series look in a film, and even then. And I haven't watched the film yet, just going off the trailer and promos. The thing about that film's visual aesthetic, was that it went doc or cinema verite, so, it seems to have worked for that. But the film 'Blue Ruin' could have been shot on anything. C3001 was great for low light at the time though, which suited Indie filmers. And yeah, funny that the two most notable fiction narratives shot on C series were both named "BLUE".

I am not knocking Canon here. I just wish we had more words for "artistic control and aesthetic design". Seems cine is such a vague word now. I mean cellphones are cine. In a way, cine does a disservice to Canon, because now other wise awesome doc cams, are compare to cameras that are used by people with million dollar salaries. Cine is supposed to be in the creators hands, or at least be built only for film making. Now, anything can get the cine badge if they just up the bit rate.

Canon makes pretty cameras that fit the job, but there is a reason they are bought by the truck load in the doc and reality world, but leave movie makers with a sour taste. On a budget, I'd go BM, Red, 2nd hand Arri, F35(yeah yeah). And with a budget Arri, Venice, or Red with PD and good lighting team. Oh yeah, film.

 

[morgan_moore]

In pure imagess I thik the C200 is basicaly good for anything including cinema in raw (and 24P) and the student/snewbs have all week to DIT it

C300 is more of a workers camera due to some sensible codecs and it works with the CN17

People like me who are not being paid to download and backup and want to get to the bar with the rest of the crew by 2030

C500 is again great for work with primes at 24p,.

I can see reasons not to shoot your motion picture on canon*, but image quality is not one of them





*example there are probably 6 Alexa Minis in a rental house in south africa along with the ronford sticks and all the other stuff you were shooting in scotland and LA.
It will all cut and work

 

[Guest]

In pure imagess I thik the C200 is basicaly good for anything including cinema in raw (and 24P) and the student/snewbs have all week to DIT it

Totally agree with this, but I don't think this is exclusive to Canon, this is just any camera in the right hands.

C300 is more of a workers camera due to some sensible codecs and it works with the CN17

People like me who are not being paid to download and backup and want to get to the bar with the rest of the crew by 2030

Yeah, Trying to dump Redcode Raw with Prores Proxies at the end of the day can take a couple hours depending on the setup. Long GOP is amazing.

C500 is again great for work with primes at 24p,.

I can see reasons not to shoot your motion picture on canon*, but image quality is not one of them

That is fair, but still would say that they don’t excel in Cine quite as well as they excel in verite/doc. But, to be aware, there are far too many cine badges, and I wouldn't say it is a specific fault of Canon. Canon is just going with the trends, so they aren't wrong. But considering how much grief people give Red over the work required in post, I'd say the Canon causes even more grief, when specifically going for a narrative fiction look. The C500ii and maybe this C3003 are at that point where maybe this is all changing, but in my weekend with the camera, it made me see why people love Black Magic.

*example there are probably 6 Alexa Minis in a rental house in south africa along with the ronford sticks and all the other stuff you were shooting in scotland and LA. It will all cut and work

Nice. But again, this is not specific to Canon. A lot of things can cut these days.

 

[DLD]

... That's about the most DR you're going to get in an exterior shot without the sun in the shot, right? ...

Technically speaking, the near car headlights in pitch darkness can be 20 stops.

 

[Guest]

Technically speaking, the near car headlights in pitch darkness can be 20 stops.

Well done!

 

[Run&Gun]

One option i hope to see in the C3003 is being able to turn off DGO for better RS performance on demand.

I believe it was one of the NewsShooter articles said that DGO is not user adjustable/defeatable. It will on, as long as the camera is operating within the parameters that supports it.

 

[Run&Gun]

I always want to start wide, you can push in with zoom, doublers or digital pushin.

I think it manufactuers problem - there are load of 18-200 and the like for £500 - what could they do for £3000.

Or a 2/3 camera with log 10/12 bit and HFR the size of an EVA.. id have that

S

My favorite lens is still my Fuji 2/3" HA13x4.5 w/built-in 2x. In s35 terms it would be ~11.5-149.5(w/2x: 23-299), so just to make it sound a little sexier lets say 11.5 to 150 and up to 300 with extender engaged. All with one lens.

 

[Guest]

I believe it was one of the NewsShooter articles said that DGO is not user adjustable/defeatable. It will on, as long as the camera is operating within the parameters that supports it.

Dang. 7millisecon rolling shutter isn’t too bad. Would be great to be able to go into “action” mode.

Idk, sometimes a cameras quirks can end up being features. We’ll see if they are able to change that in firmware.

 

[Guest]

My favorite lens is still my Fuji 2/3" HA13x4.5 w/built-in 2x. In s35 terms it would be ~11.5-149.5(w/2x: 23-299), so just to make it sound a little sexier lets say 11.5 to 150 and up to 300 with extender engaged. All with one lens.

Loved that about B4. Grab and go. Aperture was often ~1.7 there abouts too. I was religious about having media ready to go, already loaded. It was pretty liberating.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

The problem with global shutter is that it’s useless for NASA.