C200: The new Canon C200 with 4K
- Thread starter Michael Thames
- Start date
Matt Turner
Well-known member
Yeah I think we forget we are born at the beginning of the digital revolution (not just cameras).
We'll get the 8K 24 bit raw 20+ stops of DR soon enough, we're just not quite there yet.
There really is no limit to what can be achieved, but we've only just got started.
tobyhoffman
Active member
I've owned my C100 MKI since it was released and it's been the most versatile camera I've ever had the pleasure of using. The C200 looks like a giant leap for Canon in all areas and once I get the funds up I'll be heading down this route. From reading through fifty pages of this thread it seems that a lot of people expect Canon to release the world's best 'all in one' camera system but imo I think this looks like a logical step forward.
Yes, Sony's and Panasonic's.
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
Thanks for the offer, but not ready to buy yet, more towards the end of the year. I'm sure there are others here on the forum who would be interested though.
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
I wonder if we dream in 8k 24 bit raw, reality can be harsh. In other words I need to get some Tiffin pro mist filters.
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
Can someone clarify this. Brent Ramsey stated the C-200 can out-put 10 bit 422 in both the SDI and HDMI ports. When used with an external recorder is this true 10 bit 422, or is it the same case as the C100?
I doubt it's "true 10bit " over SDI or HDMI - this is an 8bit camera in compressed so , I'd say that 10bit 422 SDI out is to be taken with a grain of salt.
However those are only for 1080p and 2K over SDI. UHD out via HDMI is 8bit and you can't take out 4K over SDI. Welcome to the world of Canon.
However those are only for 1080p and 2K over SDI. UHD out via HDMI is 8bit and you can't take out 4K over SDI. Welcome to the world of Canon.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
1080 is 10 bit, UHD is 8 bit, see the published specs. Interesting to see the 2k output is 10 bit but you only get that when shooting 4K Cinema RAW Light at the same time.
The c100/300 were 8bit internal recording only so the hardware was optimized for that.
the c200 is 12,10& 8bit internal recording, so there is no hardware limit to output 10bit or 12bit for that matter only firmware limits.
the sdi/hdmi will be true 10 bit in hd , 8bit in 4k
tempted....but really annoyed by the 420/8bits as I wanted to go light and get rid of the Ninja blade...
I'm wondering if getting for exemple an ursa mini pro wouldn't be the best option : less money, good codecs, same form factor with affordable EVF...
just no AF which I rarely use and 1600ISO limitation
I'm wondering if getting for exemple an ursa mini pro wouldn't be the best option : less money, good codecs, same form factor with affordable EVF...
just no AF which I rarely use and 1600ISO limitation
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
Thanks Pure Drifting, and Avian, that cleared things up.
chris f
Veteran
After reading almost every article + forums + some comments sections, I'm shocked at how concerned cinematographers are about Canon's sales numbers, market share, brand reputation, and the future of the company. It's almost like everyone is holding their retirement solely in Canon stock.
The C200 is certainly a quirky camera, but that's where the value lies - it's really two cameras in one at a really reasonable price. By selling my C100mk2, keeping my C500 and purchasing a C200b, I'll be getting a camera that in every situation will be an upgrade from my C100 and in some situations will actually be an upgrade from my C500 - which is so weird to type out, but I'll gladly take it.
The C200 is certainly a quirky camera, but that's where the value lies - it's really two cameras in one at a really reasonable price. By selling my C100mk2, keeping my C500 and purchasing a C200b, I'll be getting a camera that in every situation will be an upgrade from my C100 and in some situations will actually be an upgrade from my C500 - which is so weird to type out, but I'll gladly take it.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
The appeal of the C200 lies in exactly what kind of work and clients you have. For those who are mostly in the non-broadcast world, (weddings, events, low end corporate) for many applications, the 8-bit .MP4 may suffice. For those who shoot short form programming (commercials, music videos, promos), especially in studio, the Cinema RAW Light seems like it will be pretty nice. For those of us in the documentary world, the XF-AVC codec, when it arrives in February, will make the camera much more flexible and useful, just wish it wasn't only crappy 8-bit as there is no reason beyond marketing why it shouldn't be 10-bit. No camera can be all things to all users. I would probably still spend the extra money on a used C300 MKII over this except for the touchscreen will be very important for me and audio controls on body will be also. 4K 60p, assuming the XF-AVC will have that, not crucial for me, and the 120p .MP4 will even be very useful for one project I am shooting having to do with sports. Multi camera is not a factor for me for 90% of the time so the T/C and genlock on the C300 MKII are nice but not important. It's a really tough choice between the two models but I am leaning toward the C200 or who knows, perhaps the new Panasonic that will be unveiled today will be a contender in this space?
It is frustrating that most of the bad decisions on the C200 seem to be driven strictly by corporate marketing strategy rather than engineering limitations.
It is frustrating that most of the bad decisions on the C200 seem to be driven strictly by corporate marketing strategy rather than engineering limitations.
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Jim Feeley
Veteran
I probably haven't been paying attention, but do you or anyone have a handy link with more info on these?
RAW Light
Details on the pending XF-AVC codecs being 8-bit and not 10-bit
And if they are planned to be 8-bit only, perhaps there's still time for Canon to change course (assuming the on-camera processor can handle processing 10-bit XF-AVC).
Also, no timecode/genlock is an issue for me since I/we work with double-system sound a lot (ie- usually) for our sort of doc work. But that said, seems like a sensible thing to cut out to protect C300mkII sales (though it probably didnt' save them much money). And that does make me more open to alternative cameras from other manufacturers....
But geez, compared to the old days, what are we all whining about?
RAW Light
Details on the pending XF-AVC codecs being 8-bit and not 10-bit
And if they are planned to be 8-bit only, perhaps there's still time for Canon to change course (assuming the on-camera processor can handle processing 10-bit XF-AVC).
Also, no timecode/genlock is an issue for me since I/we work with double-system sound a lot (ie- usually) for our sort of doc work. But that said, seems like a sensible thing to cut out to protect C300mkII sales (though it probably didnt' save them much money). And that does make me more open to alternative cameras from other manufacturers....
But geez, compared to the old days, what are we all whining about?
Angry Leprechaun
Well-known member
So purely for fun speculative purposes (and I have a project I'm going to try and acquire funding for) what would be the best setup with this for run and gun/gimbal work? One of my favorite things about my zhiyun crane/a6300 setup is that it's small, lightweight, flexible, and by attaching a quick release I can take it off the gimbal quickly for handheld shots and snap it back on without needing to rebalance. I'm curious about what kind of setup I can do that's similar to this but big enough to handle the C200.
The Helix Jr. looks like a nice option but I'm not sure about both the weight limit and quality (haven't seen a lot from it online and a lot of what I saw wasn't that great). If you have footage PureDrifting from your setup I'd love to see it. Also curious if there's a good quick release option to go from gimbal to handheld without needing to rebalance (assuming the lens stays the same obviously).
The Helix Jr. looks like a nice option but I'm not sure about both the weight limit and quality (haven't seen a lot from it online and a lot of what I saw wasn't that great). If you have footage PureDrifting from your setup I'd love to see it. Also curious if there's a good quick release option to go from gimbal to handheld without needing to rebalance (assuming the lens stays the same obviously).
It was either off FStop Shooters or Cinema 5D, where someone said/wrote that Canon is trying to "squeeze" Raw Light into the 8-bit XF-AVC and that's taking them more time than they thought would be needed. I assume there'll be a lot more info at the CineGear.
And I wish people put pressure on Canon to go 10-bit internal. I mean, a $2,000 GH5 has that.
PS. And they could have offered a greater compression too. Sony's X-OCN does 24p at 661 Mbps, not 1 Gbps. For someone like Pure Drifting, it'd save a lot of media $pace.
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
I have a Helix Jr. as well. I've been thinking about it a little more. At first I used the C100 MKI on it, and it worked really good right out of the box. Then got a C100 MKII because of the onboard mic. And I had a harder time with it. I believe the Viewfinder is just tall enough to make it harder to balance for the set up, as well as for the Helix to not get stressed out. To be honest I haven't spent as much time getting it to work with the C100 MKII, because I haven't had time. Looks like the C-200 isn't as top heavy as the C100 MKII if that makes any difference, which I think it does. I haven't upgraded to the new encoders yet, with the new encoders probably not an issue.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I'll be 100% up front, I bought the Helix Jr. Magnesium w the brand new encoded motors for my documentary shoot in South America a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, a lot of things converged which made it not possible for me to take the Helix Jr. on the trip.
1. Received it just a few days before departure on the trip
2. Had to try to learn balancing it (tricky with the C100 and the C200 is heavier than the C100 MKI so not sure if it will work)
3. Had to try to learn the indecipherable hieroglyphics that are Simple BGC and the Letus app (for a non computer programmer like me, really, really confusing)
4. The settings that DVXer Slavik B had were for the older Helix JR. without the encoded motors, so they didn't work for the encoded motor version at all
5. I shot some test shots just around the house, with my son standing in for talent and doing walk and talks. The results were unacceptable, too much vibration and microjitter. Not going to show those shots publicly
6. Received some new settings from Slavik B that he worked out with Ken, Letus' engineer. These were for the encoded motors and the C100 MKI.
Frankly, just like Michael, I have been too busy to devote a full day or two out of my schedule to try to tackle it once again. Based upon my experience so far, the Helix is a beautifully made and engineered product. Supposedly it works right out of the box with smaller, lighter DSLR/Mirrorless cameras. But a tall, heavy camera like the C100 MKI is probably at the outer edge of it's limit, not only the weight, but the size. Slavik told me that even with his exact settings, which are posted on his website www.geardads.com my Helix Jr. may still need a lot of tweaking because each group of encoded motors are a bit different. The Letus products are not stamped out on an assembly line, they are at least hand assembled so there are different tolerances that mean my settings may or may not work perfectly for your identical camera, Helix Jr. and accessories.
If it were me, I would not buy the Helix Jr. for the C200, I would buy the full sized Helix. Slavik and his co-producer are flying their C300 MKII on it with good results, you can see them on-line, music clips they shot at SXSW a few months ago. I remain optimistic that I will get my C100 MKI flying on the Helix Jr. successfully and once I do, I will post the results. If I buy the C200, my C100 MKI will probably become my somewhat dedicated gimbal camera. And even though it is lighter than the C200, the Helix Jr. Magnesium with the C100 MKI on it, with battery, cards, external microphone, Zacuto Grip Relocator, is still a hefty little beast, you won't be able to hold it steady for more than about 5-10 minutes and as you shoot with it for a full production day, you will become shakier and more fatigued with each passing shot. You are still holding about 10-15lbs out in front of your body. The Letus EXO-17 vest thingy that they showed at NAB is intriguing, it may allow you to shoot with a gimbal held in front of your body for longer stints at a time. The hot tip obviously would be a Steadicam type vest and arm with a gimbal. But for me, gimbals are just tools for an occasional shot, not a tool for carrying around and shooting with all day.
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Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
As I often work with a C100 (but I do own the FS7) doing corporate stuff and with the low speced codec within, the final result actually look really nice. Going from the C100 to C200 is a good step in the right direction. But it's no match for something like the FS7 which as far as sensor to card does everything very well.
I guess Sony didn't knew before hand what a bench mark camera they put out in the FS7. And now almost three years ago since its launch others are still struggling. My money stays in the Sony camp.
I guess Sony didn't knew before hand what a bench mark camera they put out in the FS7. And now almost three years ago since its launch others are still struggling. My money stays in the Sony camp.