C200: The new Canon C200 with 4K

Ha, the form factor is one of the things I really like about the c100. Striped down it's not much bigger than a DSLR and the grip makes for a very comfortable support for run and gun stuff., and my hand has easy access to all the buttons. I've never used the XLR's in close to 3 years of owning it so the top handle usually stays on the shelf. If I do use it for a acratch track recording it's usually on a slider or tripod with the Blade.... and yes it can appear a little top heavy I must confess I've only used the C100 on tripods sliders and until recently the Letus Helix Jr. run and gun was the last thing on my mind until I did it. I'm sure though you have been in more situations than I, but I find it pretty good, although I've never used anything else so I can't compare.

The real issue for me will be the price, and what it's lacking from the C300 mkii. Will the C200 be a $10,000 C300 with a few things missing?
 
If you could look at my fully rigged out C100/300 right now, from the bottom of the handgrip that is on the Wooden Camera grip relocator at the end of a Tilta 6" Arri rosette arm to the top of the camera where I have an AT-875r shotgun, the overall height is absolutely ridiculous, it's almost 2'!! Who wants to carry around a two foot tall camera rig? It works but it is a kludge to shoot effective handheld footage with C100/300/300MKII without a Zacuto Recoil type rig. And the Zacuto Recoil Rig is great but it still is a Franken Rig. I have to unthread the Arri Rosette on the Tilta Arm just to put my rig down on a flat surface. Shooting handheld in front of your body is cool for b-roll, I have done it but you really cannot shoot interviews handheld without looking up someone's nose unless the cam is on your shoulder and the C100/300/300MKII don't do that unless you add a baseplate, grip relocator, arm, cables, eyepiece like a Zacuto EVF Pro/Graticle. You also lose points of contact handheld and cannot shoot steadily very long, you get shaky whereas I can shoot with my C100/300 Franken Rig all day and my interviews look like a barely moving tripod. Shoulder mounted shooting is essential to documentary and event coverage and the EOS Cinema cameras, with the exception of the C700, are a hot mess for doing so. I have about $3k worth of add ons to make my C100/300 usable for shoulder mounted shooting in a professional setting. Whereas an intelligently designed pro camera like an F55, Varicam LT or Amira, comes out of the box ready to do that because it is a box with a viewfinder. Canon needs to get a clue and drop the current form factor and follow in the C700's footsteps.

Sure for tripod, crane, gimbal and slider, who cares? But many of us make our bread and butter with handheld, shoulder mount shooting. Canon's not the only guilty party, REDs suck for this too, they have terrible ergos and must be kludged together for handheld. Like it or not, the broadcast 2/3" imager handheld camera form factor is superior for all handheld shooting so all we are doing is trying to turn our weirdly shaped and balanced tools back into a Betacam, it would be so much better if Canon understood this.
 
Last edited:
5D Mark IV enthusiasts will never forget their epic 'firmware update' fail, but still...they are more right than wrong.

This one is a CR3...but regardless, a new camera from Canon will eventually come no matter what.
 
puredrifting said:
If you could look at my fully rigged out C100/300 right now, from the bottom of the handgrip that is on the Wooden Camera grip relocator at the end of a Tilta 6" Arri rosette arm to the top of the camera where I have an AT-875r shotgun, the overall height is absolutely ridiculous, it's almost 2'!! Who wants to carry around a two foot tall camera rig? It works but it is a kludge to shoot effective handheld footage with C100/300/300MKII without a Zacuto Recoil type rig. And the Zacuto Recoil Rig is great but it still is a Franken Rig. I have to unthread the Arri Rosette on the Tilta Arm just to put my rig down on a flat surface. Shooting handheld in front of your body is cool for b-roll, I have done it but you really cannot shoot interviews handheld without looking up someone's nose unless the cam is on your shoulder and the C100/300/300MKII don't do that unless you add a baseplate, grip relocator, arm, cables, eyepiece like a Zacuto EVF Pro/Graticle. You also lose points of contact handheld and cannot shoot steadily very long, you get shaky whereas I can shoot with my C100/300 Franken Rig all day and my interviews look like a barely moving tripod. Shoulder mounted shooting is essential to documentary and event coverage and the EOS Cinema cameras, with the exception of the C700, are a hot mess for doing so. I have about $3k worth of add ons to make my C100/300 usable for shoulder mounted shooting in a professional setting. Whereas an intelligently designed pro camera like an F55, Varicam LT or Amira, comes out of the box ready to do that because it is a box with a viewfinder. Canon needs to get a clue and drop the current form factor and follow in the C700's footsteps.

Sure for tripod, crane, gimbal and slider, who cares? But many of us make our bread and butter with handheld, shoulder mount shooting. Canon's not the only guilty party, REDs suck for this too, they have terrible ergos and must be kludged together for handheld. Like it or not, the broadcast 2/3" imager handheld camera form factor is superior for all handheld shooting so all we are doing is trying to turn our weirdly shaped and balanced tools back into a Betacam, it would be so much better if Canon understood this.
Click to expand...


I do a lot of run and gun and I love the form factor of the C100. I would much rather keep the body how it is
 
NorBro said:
5D Mark IV enthusiasts will never forget their epic 'firmware update' fail, but still...they are more right than wrong...
Click to expand...
Which is why I feel that starting a thread based on a rumor is pretty silly. You know, like that Panasonic Mojo w/Mitch.
 
puredrifting said:
If you could look at my fully rigged out C100/300 right now, from the bottom of the handgrip that is on the Wooden Camera grip relocator at the end of a Tilta 6" Arri rosette arm to the top of the camera where I have an AT-875r shotgun, the overall height is absolutely ridiculous, it's almost 2'!! Who wants to carry around a two foot tall camera rig? It works but it is a kludge to shoot effective handheld footage with C100/300/300MKII without a Zacuto Recoil type rig. And the Zacuto Recoil Rig is great but it still is a Franken Rig. I have to unthread the Arri Rosette on the Tilta Arm just to put my rig down on a flat surface. Shooting handheld in front of your body is cool for b-roll, I have done it but you really cannot shoot interviews handheld without looking up someone's nose unless the cam is on your shoulder and the C100/300/300MKII don't do that unless you add a baseplate, grip relocator, arm, cables, eyepiece like a Zacuto EVF Pro/Graticle. You also lose points of contact handheld and cannot shoot steadily very long, you get shaky whereas I can shoot with my C100/300 Franken Rig all day and my interviews look like a barely moving tripod. Shoulder mounted shooting is essential to documentary and event coverage and the EOS Cinema cameras, with the exception of the C700, are a hot mess for doing so. I have about $3k worth of add ons to make my C100/300 usable for shoulder mounted shooting in a professional setting. Whereas an intelligently designed pro camera like an F55, Varicam LT or Amira, comes out of the box ready to do that because it is a box with a viewfinder. Canon needs to get a clue and drop the current form factor and follow in the C700's footsteps.

Sure for tripod, crane, gimbal and slider, who cares? But many of us make our bread and butter with handheld, shoulder mount shooting. Canon's not the only guilty party, REDs suck for this too, they have terrible ergos and must be kludged together for handheld. Like it or not, the broadcast 2/3" imager handheld camera form factor is superior for all handheld shooting so all we are doing is trying to turn our weirdly shaped and balanced tools back into a Betacam, it would be so much better if Canon understood this.
Click to expand...

Preach it. I've spent thousands to make my C300 usable on the shoulder and it weighs about as much as my VariCam, but not quite as balanced and definitely not as functional. My F55, on the other hand, only required a Zacuto VCT shoulder mount and a grip. Still not a VariCam(or Betacam), but WORLDS better than the C300/100 series.

And for what it's worth, I was told right after NAB by one of my reps, that something from Canon is coming.
 
puredrifting said:
If you could look at my fully rigged out C100/300 right now, from the bottom of the handgrip that is on the Wooden Camera grip relocator at the end of a Tilta 6" Arri rosette arm to the top of the camera where I have an AT-875r shotgun, the overall height is absolutely ridiculous, it's almost 2'!! Who wants to carry around a two foot tall camera rig? It works but it is a kludge to shoot effective handheld footage with C100/300/300MKII without a Zacuto Recoil type rig. And the Zacuto Recoil Rig is great but it still is a Franken Rig. I have to unthread the Arri Rosette on the Tilta Arm just to put my rig down on a flat surface. Shooting handheld in front of your body is cool for b-roll, I have done it but you really cannot shoot interviews handheld without looking up someone's nose unless the cam is on your shoulder and the C100/300/300MKII don't do that unless you add a baseplate, grip relocator, arm, cables, eyepiece like a Zacuto EVF Pro/Graticle. You also lose points of contact handheld and cannot shoot steadily very long, you get shaky whereas I can shoot with my C100/300 Franken Rig all day and my interviews look like a barely moving tripod. Shoulder mounted shooting is essential to documentary and event coverage and the EOS Cinema cameras, with the exception of the C700, are a hot mess for doing so. I have about $3k worth of add ons to make my C100/300 usable for shoulder mounted shooting in a professional setting. Whereas an intelligently designed pro camera like an F55, Varicam LT or Amira, comes out of the box ready to do that because it is a box with a viewfinder. Canon needs to get a clue and drop the current form factor and follow in the C700's footsteps.

Sure for tripod, crane, gimbal and slider, who cares? But many of us make our bread and butter with handheld, shoulder mount shooting. Canon's not the only guilty party, REDs suck for this too, they have terrible ergos and must be kludged together for handheld. Like it or not, the broadcast 2/3" imager handheld camera form factor is superior for all handheld shooting so all we are doing is trying to turn our weirdly shaped and balanced tools back into a Betacam, it would be so much better if Canon understood this.
Click to expand...


All of that ^^ is one reason I went with the Fs7 instead of the C300.

One of my Sound Op's jokes that you know a camera was designed by a cameraman when it is designed in a manner where the audio inputs can be forgotten back at the shop. And don't think for a minute there aren't shooters who have done that!


I could go on about my dislike of the C-form factor, but let's not turn this thread into that. The small-box form factor obviously has a place in the industry. The success of the Alexa mini attests to that. No camera form-factor does everything well.

As to the rumored C200, Canon obviously needs something to fill the gap between the C100 and the C300. They are getting hammered by all the sales lost to the Fs7 and Fs5. As of now, Canon has no answer to a 4K capable s35 camera for under $6K. And Sony's introduction of that electronic ND- something that even ARRI owners are envious of - was piling it on an already flat on their back and wounded Canon. Imagine the total sales of Fs5's and Fs7's over the past 2 years as compared to total C100 / C300 sales. It is likely a 10:1 ratio in favor of Sony. If you are Canon, that cannot stand.
 
What I think it will be.

Canon C100 mkIII/200 (manufacturers seem to like uneven numbers: C100, C300, C500, C700, F5, F55, FS5, FS7)
4k at 30fps 4:2:0 8bit internally
1080 at 120fps
HDMI output 4:2:2 10bit (4k at 30fps)
13-14 stops of DR
Less noise than the C100 mkii

Not sure about the form factor. I would be very surprised if it's similar to an FS7.
 
Last edited:
scoop2622 said:
I do a lot of run and gun and I love the form factor of the C100. I would much rather keep the body how it is
Click to expand...

I carry my C100 around on a shoulder sling. Whenever I rig it up to go on my shoulder, I find it annoyingly cumbersome and not very adaptable. I can understand the desire to have a shoulder rig if you spend 12hr days continuously walking around and grabbing shots or interviews at a conference or for a documentary where a lightweight tripod is unusable, but I prefer having the option to go stripped down.
 
JPNola said:
As to the rumored C200, Canon obviously needs something to fill the gap between the C100 and the C300. They are getting hammered by all the sales lost to the Fs7 and Fs5. As of now, Canon has no answer to a 4K capable s35 camera for under $6K. And Sony's introduction of that electronic ND- something that even ARRI owners are envious of - was piling it on an already flat on their back and wounded Canon. Imagine the total sales of Fs5's and Fs7's over the past 2 years as compared to total C100 / C300 sales. It is likely a 10:1 ratio in favor of Sony. If you are Canon, that cannot stand.
Click to expand...

The only logical conclusion to come to about Canon's strategy is that their EOS business really is just a blip on the corporate earnings report. Canon, as a corporation, has blown Sony into the water with earnings and profitability for quite a while. Sony, as a business, has been teetering on the edge for years. I was with a business consulting firm with Sony as a client for a few years and after a look behind the curtain, I feel that Sony's broadcast camera business is a significant portion of earnings of the electronics division, whereas for Canon, the EOS line cameras are basically a hobby. Compared to the tens of millions of EOS lenses, DSLRs up until a year or two ago, copiers, monitors, printers, plus all of the industrial and OEM work, I truly think that the EOS Cinema line is basically a prestige hobby that Canon is in. It's the only logical conclusion. If it were a significant portion of earnings, we would be on the C500 MKIII, the C300 MKIII and the C100 MKIV by now.

So Sony may sell a LOT more sub $10k video/digital cinema/mirrorless cameras than Canon, I agree, they have been killing it with sales of FS5/FS7/A7 variants, but it is still in question if there will be a Sony Corporation in five years, whereas Canon is a monolith in comparison. As to whether or not Canon will ever get serious about their cinema camera business, the C700 and the new CNe zooms are positive signs and relatively innovative new products. But I agree that the rest of the line is need of a re-think, re-strategy, and new products that innovate, rather than follow. That's what kills me, Canon, if they wanted to could so utterly dominate this business, they have the knowledge and resources to do so. But they have not innovated much, they are always ridiculously late to the game and overprice their cameras and then ratchet down the MSRP for the product's life. And this is coming from a Canon fan. They want to sell some digital cinema cameras, but with nice, but not impressive products like the C700, leaving off 4K 60P on their bread and butter C300 MKII, not having a sub $10k 4k capable pro digital camera in mid 2017, you have to say, they are not serious about taking, staking and reclaiming market share in digital cinema/broadcast cameras. Whereas, it looks as if Sony and Panasonic definitely are.

We went down this same road with Canon years ago with the XL-H1. Remember when everyone else was innovating, constantly battling it out with P2, SxS, EX1, HPX170 and Canon was STILL only selling an XL-H1 with HDV? They were years behind at that point. Then it seemed as if they caught up with the market again with the initial C100/300/500 lineup, now they have kind of fallen behind what the market is interested in again. C700 is a very nice camera but pricing it alongside the Arri Amira when it needs to priced alongside the Varicam LT was not a smart move. I am not seeing the camera on sets, I am not reading trades on how new episodic or features are shooting the C700 and it's been on the market, as in on dealers shelves, for five months. C300 MKII is a solid camera but it lacks features like 4K 60p frame rates, non-windowed, non-soft HD frame higher frame rates, Prores recording and the shoulder mounted form factor that the market wants. Personally, I think this new camera, if it is coming out this year, will be a very important indicator of if Canon will continue to have a place at the table. Honestly, the only things keeping me on Canon are the fourteen EOS lenses I own, the color science and DPAF, which is handy for some of my work. But even I am heavily taking a look at Panasonic and even a little at the Ursa Mini Pro, which I think in the next generation might be a killer camera, if they can just conquer the last few nits their camera lacks. I really hope Canon pulls out a winner with this new camera. If they do, I will buy it, but if it is just an expensive compromise, I will likely go back to Panasonic with either a Varicam LT or the new under the veil camera, if it turns out to be innovative. Either will work with my EOS lenses, and while they lack DPAF or at least the Varicam LT does, they have a good VF system and focusing aids. I'm not crazy about buying back into P2 but I would if I had to.
 
Last edited:
I'm left-eye dominant. I can live with a nice shoulder-mounted camera (and liked the "can on the shoulder" feel of an Aaton), but I don't like trying to twist my head or move the viewfinder to see through the camera with my left eye. Plus, I felt like I was really cut off from peripherally knowing what's going on around me. Typical ENG-style cameras are a drag for me.

So for me, the layout of a C300, DVX200, FS5, etc., is something I'm willing to put up with. And I find I use a monopod with some success. So I totally hear what you all are saying, but for me a right-shoulder-mount design wouldn't necessarily be a selling point.
 
Yes, for someone like you, that's tough Jim. I am an NRA Shotgun Instructor, do you realize you can train your right eye to become dominant over your left eye? I can tell you how to do it for shooting clays, it can't be that different for shooting video unless your right eye is physically damaged.
 
You get an FS7 when you can't afford a C300...... to be fair, probably most of your clients wouldn't know the difference anyway. First thing I think of when I hear this argument is the poor guy couldn't afford a C300.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top