C200: The new Canon C200 with 4K

DLD said:
Thanks for stealing my sales there, buddy! (I was in West LA back then. CC had a store on National and Sepulveda, IRC. Los Angelesdotcom shows 37 ex-CC locations, if one includes San Louis Obispo. Oddly enough, CC was one of the few LA chains that I had not worked for)
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Ha, ha, I was a store opener for a few years, opened the Woodland Hills, Northridge, Santa Barbara and Ventura stores. I was an ACE Manager, Audio, Video, and White Goods. I have to say, electronics were a lot more exciting back then, like when the CD came out. The personal computer! The MOBILE phone (yep, those ones that looked like a little suitcase, used to sell those). Glad I saw the Newtek Video Toaster running on an Amiga, it's what made me get out of retail and into production. I knew in the 80s video would explode and it did. Guess it was my fate. I should have gone to law school instead or got heavier into real estate brokering ;-)
 
puredrifting said:
... I have to say, electronics were a lot more exciting back then, like when the CD came out. The personal computer! The MOBILE phone (yep, those ones that looked like a little suitcase, used to sell those) ...
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There were a lot of things hapening there indeed.

Audio was driven by the emergence of CD's (although many a disc from the early-mid 80's sounded horribly due to having mix/overdub noise from the 1960's 4- and 8-track recorders).

Video was getting big screens - first, front projectors; then bigger tubes, then rear projectors - then affordable VCR's and video cameras for the masses. Cable TV and video store were connecting everything to the consumer.

Audio+Video+ HiFi VCR's were leading to the "next big wave" of the surround sound - first 3-channel, then 4 channel Pro Logic - home theater systems. And high end/videophile consumers went for the 12" Laser Disc.

The mobile was first with relatively inexpensive car phones, then briefcase phones until Motorola DynaTAC Brick came down in price (it was $4,000 in 1984 when an average new car was ~ $6,500). When Motorola Flip (MictroTAC) came out in 1989, it was being sold for $2,500 in places like AL&Ed and those guys couldn't keep it in stock.

The big move in computers were Windows in the mid-late 80's, then Intel's 486 series chips that made many a folks buy their first PC/Mac/notebook.

I knew some folks who had worked at CC/Zody's and Federated and were making in the $60,000 range back then, more than a lawyer's starting salary. That was the happy time of consumer retail.
 
Ahh, but enough about the good old days. Interesting, this C200 thread has really cooled off while the EVA1 thread up at the top is now at 170 pages. Seems as if there is more interest in the EVA1, at least here on DVX.
 
We know everything about the C200 and all we can do now is wait.

The EVA1 thread is filled with lots of junk, so it's not like it's 170 pages of useful information/interest - which no thread of course ever is, but just saying. Plus, the camera is still a little bit of a mystery.

P.S. Don't get DLD started on VCRs...:tongue:
 
puredrifting said:
Ahh, but enough about the good old days...
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I thought it was interesting to compare the electronic boom of the 1980's with the camera boom of today. TV's got to a plateau in the mid-90's and then became a commodity prior to the flat screen/HD and now 4K revolution. Consumer cameras - both stills and video - also became a commodity by the mid-90's and were rescued by the shift to digital. My take is that the pro video gear is about to reach its two important plateaus as well - the affordable 4K and the internal Raw recording. A high end pro tier of Alexa, F 55/65, Helium, Vaicam or various iterations thereof would still be the choice of the TV and "film" but the difference in quality between them and something like C200 (and various iterations thereof) would be negligible.
 
DLD said:
...A high end pro tier of Alexa, F 55/65, Helium, Vaicam or various iterations thereof would still be the choice of the TV and "film" but the difference in quality between them and something like C200 (and various iterations thereof) would be negligible.
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I agree, and like I have been saying, I think Canon has conceived something huge. They weren't the first, the Ursa Mini Pro is also doing a form of this, but the UMP is not a mainstream camera like the C200 is. The Cinema RAW Light codec and way of shooting is much more significant than the C200 itself. The RED workflow is well established but to play in the RED sandbox, it is a much more exclusive club, even on the low end of RED (Raven that nobody can get?). That we can get a similar workflow and level of quality on a $7,500.00 camera is huge, I don't think the Canon haters understand how huge this. This is one feature that blows away the EVA1 and even the Varicam LT, C300 MKII, in-camera RAW recording that is affordable! Don't get me wrong, I am also buying an EVA1 as it has a lot of features the C200 lacks but I think the C200 is a more significant innovation, or so it seems. I cannot wait to see the tests and shootouts between the C200 shooting Cinema RAW Light and the REDs, Arris, etc. I predict that there will not be that much of a difference in what can be obtained by a talented DP shooting the C200 versus cameras that cost three to ten times as much. CFast prices are going to finally drop more quickly and CFast card sizes are going to rise. Of course, the C300 MKIII will include this but I agree that it will initially cost $16k or so making it more of a working pro camera than a mass market camera like the C200 is.
 
I think I remember right a 128g card will hold 15 minutes of raw light. If my math is right a 90 minute feature is under 1t and a 10 to 1 shooting ration is under 8t and saw a 8T drive for $279. So even going with 2 drives for backup and to work off of that still under a grand. lol when I moved from CA to MO I found a quote from NAB for can't think of the system that was the poorman's AVID. But a 9g drive was 10k...that was like 12 to 15 years ago and back then an Avid film composer was like 75k... and roughy shooting on 35mm (stock and lab) was about a 100k for a low budget feature. lol now if I could only get a new body cheap.
 
puredrifting said:
I agree, and like I have been saying, I think Canon has conceived something huge. They weren't the first, the Ursa Mini Pro is also doing a form of this, but the UMP is not a mainstream camera like the C200 is. The Cinema RAW Light codec and way of shooting is much more significant than the C200 itself. The RED workflow is well established but to play in the RED sandbox, it is a much more exclusive club, even on the low end of RED (Raven that nobody can get?). That we can get a similar workflow and level of quality on a $7,500.00 camera is huge, I don't think the Canon haters understand how huge this. This is one feature that blows away the EVA1 and even the Varicam LT, C300 MKII, in-camera RAW recording that is affordable!...
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Right. Plus, it's a C700 sensor (kind of), so it should produce a C700 type of image. Now, some will say C700 ain't Alexa but Alexa ain't $7,500 and a quality colorist should be able to match Raw Light to Alexa rather easily.

GaryinCalifornia said:
I think I remember right a 128g card will hold 15 minutes of raw light. If my math is right a 90 minute feature is under 1t and a 10 to 1 shooting ration is under 8t and saw a 8T drive for $279...
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I posted this in another thread - the digital production ratios get up to 200:1. They never turn the darn camera off.

That said, an indi crew should be able to get by with 5:1 or lower. 10:1 was what studios did back in the day on film.
 
[QUOTE
I posted this in another thread - the digital production ratios get up to 200:1. They never turn the darn camera off.

That said, an indi crew should be able to get by with 5:1 or lower. 10:1 was what studios did back in the day on film.[/QUOTE]

I always budget 10 to 1... I think the last film was like 20 to 1 since we shot with two Alexas and it was an indie film..
 
DLD said:
Right. Plus, it's a C700 sensor (kind of), so it should produce a C700 type of image. Now, some will say C700 ain't Alexa but Alexa ain't $7,500 and a quality colorist should be able to match Raw Light to Alexa rather easily.
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I think the C300 IIs colour was changed from the C300 to match the Alexa more closely, anyway.
 
Noel Evans said:
Just a heads up for everyone that I've requested the addition of the C200 prefix to be added to Canon Cinema EOS Cameras.
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Sorry quick update on this. Just had to confirm other changes and have now put final request to admin. Wont be long and once done I will update C200 threads to correct prefix so things stay organised. Cheers.
 
Internal...internal...internal! In addition to the internal Cinema Raw Light, if the C200 has internal XF-AVC 10-bit 4:2:2, Canon has hit a homer with this camera. This is the wildcard... Hate external recorders period.
 
boo said:
Internal...internal...internal! In addition to the internal Cinema Raw Light, if the C200 has internal XF-AVC 10-bit 4:2:2, Canon has hit a homer with this camera. This is the wildcard... Hate external recorders period.
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From your lips, to Canons ears.
 
DLD said:
Right. Plus, it's a C700 sensor (kind of), so it should produce a C700 type of image.
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boo said:
Internal...internal...internal! …if the C200 has internal XF-AVC 10-bit 4:2:2, Canon has hit a homer with this camera.
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Here's my take on this:

To me, it's pretty obvious that it's the C300mkII/C700 sensor in the C200. Canon can't develop a whole new sensor for every tier so it makes total sense when you look at the rest of the specs like DR capability and such. Normally, to not punch too much above its weight, the camera get crippled by limiting codecs (and we partly see that here), or it gets a leaner package with a lot less production tools (we see that here too).

It almost can't be overstated though, that in this camera's 'best case' scenario (internal raw) it will deliver 99.5% of the best image quality Canon offers in ANY of its cinema cameras. Simple as that. Add to this all the useful assist tools like DPAF that seems to be implemented at the highest level (including the manual assist mode) and all the ND filters and so on, plus new hardware solutions like improved handle and new LCD/audio solutions.

Canon's attempt at communicating this camera's capabilities is clumsy at best. Probably for the simple reason that, on one hand, they don't want to offend their customers paying top dollar for C300mkII and C700:

"Does it have the C700 sensor?"

"Yea.. weeeell.. nnaa... ye... sort of... But you see, it has to do with "signal processing" (air quotes) and "stuff like that, you know". So it's not like it's the same... as in same-same."

Surely this answer makes those C700 owners sleep better at night. "Thank GOD it's not the SAME!!!"

On the other hand, Canon tries to throw their C200 buyers a bone saying: "Yup. XFAVC codec is coming for sure. Later, that fo' sure too! But it's coming"

The reason for this is that they now need to sit down and figure out how to make the C300mkII 10bit 422 codec "play nice" in an 8bit 422 version. Canon estimates this will take them half a year. At least.

Hush! Don't tell the XC10/15 team! They have already had this XFAVC 8bit 422 intra frame codec at 305Mbit/s for a few years now... but that camera didn't really sell so no-one will figure out how lame THAT excuse was.

The real reason is of course that they'll have a C300 mkIII announcement by then to show the way forward for that crowd. A completely synthetic and deliberate delay of the C200 codec.

I didn't expect raw, but I totally thought the XC10 codec (at 8bit) was the lowest level the C200 would come in at.




Yes, the C200 does have a pretty obvious pimple that seems to be what everyone is commenting on, but for those who can lift their eyes above that and see the camera for what it is—they are getting a really great deal.

4k ProRes at 12bit and 25fps is 1.2Gbit/s. Raw Light is around 1.5Gbit right? It's not that the files are bloated. Once you go for that ultimate quality, files will be big. But it would be really great to have that 305Mbit codec as an internal alternative.
 
The XC10/15 also records it's 4K to a CFAST card. I am assuming that Canon is attempting to get it's higher bitrate codec onto the SD cards. Ot not, and then you don't have double slot recording. As much as people keep talking about crippling, I am seeing more of an issue with Canon's QC and making sure that certain cards and write speeds don't overheat. I'm assuming that is why there is a single CFAST card slot right next to the fan. To me, the C200 looks like great competition for the FS5, but it doesn't have much overlap with the C300 II. If the sensor and picture profiles are the same between the C200 and C300 II, then it will be a fantastic b-cam (or a-cam in many situations) to the C300 II. They are more complementary than competitive.
 
puredrifting said:
Ahh, but enough about the good old days. Interesting, this C200 thread has really cooled off while the EVA1 thread up at the top is now at 170 pages. Seems as if there is more interest in the EVA1, at least here on DVX.
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It cooled off because almost everything is known, those who want to buy it have their minds set and are just waiting for August.

Quick summary of Cinema EOS max. picture quality:
C200 compressed 4k RAW in camera - low budget / indie
C300 II uncompressed 4k RAW - network / broadcast
C700 uncompressed 4.5k RAW in camera (option) - high end / vfx.

One more thing that can heat up this thread is the fan noise, especially in 4k RAW recording mode.
C500 was quiet in 'C300' mode, but it started to sound like a hoover when spitting out 4k.

How is C300 MII behaving when outputting 4k RAW and simultaneously dual slot recording XF-AVC to CFast cards?
 
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laverdir said:
How is C300 MII behaving when outputting 4k RAW and simultaneously dual slot recording XF-AVC to CFast cards?
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Just shot a two hour 4K interview a few days ago. Two CFast recording, proxy SD card recording, and 4K RAW going out to an Atomos recorder (which was recording 4K ProRes). I didn't notice fan noise.
 
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