The 24 Diary

Great little guide man. Keep up the good work.

I am on Movie #2 myself, although your guide wasn't around in 2006 when I made my first film which was $10K in budget, well almost $11K. I did get it distributed though. Didn't make that 35K you had mentioned, but it broke even.

Just finished 2nd film in October 08, doing some re-edited to fix pacing issues, got me a known horror celeb, the former Helicopter Zombie guy from the original DAWN of the DEAD. Did second film on less than $6,000.00. Go here to see trailer: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=158035

Third film is in the works, somewhat, just need a breather for a moment.
 
JLS4 you should sell this as a short book / audio book. I would buy it for $5. If 99 more people buy it then you are talking a little cash. It is possible for 1000 people to buy it then you are really talking. All I need is a quick 50 pages or so PDF and audiobook version I can put on my iPhone and listen to. Ever thought about a podcast? Send me a private message.
 
DjfunkmasterG said:
Great little guide man. Keep up the good work.

I am on Movie #2 myself, although your guide wasn't around in 2006 when I made my first film which was $10K in budget, well almost $11K. I did get it distributed though. Didn't make that 35K you had mentioned, but it broke even.

Just finished 2nd film in October 08, doing some re-edited to fix pacing issues, got me a known horror celeb, the former Helicopter Zombie guy from the original DAWN of the DEAD. Did second film on less than $6,000.00. Go here to see trailer: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=158035

Third film is in the works, somewhat, just need a breather for a moment.
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cool, I'll definately check out your trailer. Like I said this is RRodriguez's plan. I just modified it to work more for people with no contacts. But thanks for reading.

GrahamRobbins said:
Great guide keep it up!

Thanks,
Graham Robbins
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Thanks! It helps to keep me going when people give me a little nod to let me know it helps them.

Nik Manning said:
JLS4 you should sell this as a short book / audio book. I would buy it for $5. If 99 more people buy it then you are talking a little cash. It is possible for 1000 people to buy it then you are really talking. All I need is a quick 50 pages or so PDF and audiobook version I can put on my iPhone and listen to. Ever thought about a podcast? Send me a private message.
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I wanted somebody to film it in Atlanta and then I'd do a video series. But I was finishing up my movie and didn't have time to do it myself. This way people could see and hear what I'm saying and I could show them different variations of what I'm talking about - especially when it comes to lighting, set design, colors, etc. I also wanted to comment on different pieces of movie equipment. I wouldn't even mind doing a subscription for like $15 so that everytime the video was updated, I'd just send out a private link to those who were in the subscription for them to download. but an audio book would be cool. i'll send you a pm.
 
DjfunkmasterG said:
Just finished 2nd film in October 08, doing some re-edited to fix pacing issues, got me a known horror celeb, the former Helicopter Zombie guy from the original DAWN of the DEAD. Did second film on less than $6,000.00. Go here to see trailer: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=158035

Third film is in the works, somewhat, just need a breather for a moment.
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Definately your trailer looks good. Let you a message in your thread. Keep it up!
 
mentatDUKE said:
Thanks for updating the diary jls. Good stuff.

About finding a producer:
I'm beginning to think that finding a producer that meets our expectations may be next to impossible at this level. Why?

They're a hired hand. This makes getting them emotionally invested in the project difficult, and why we as directors often just wear the producer hat ourselves. Remember your rule? "If I can find a person who can light as well as me, I'll give up the position."

This means that we need to be able to find a producer that is willing to sweat and even bleed for the film. Just like we are. Tall order? You bet.
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I appreciate this sentiment but it's also a little dangerous at times to your projects.

I produce A LOT and often wonder why the heck I'm doing so many projects that are not my own in terms of origination.

There are 2 main categories that they fall into:

1) Paid work

2) Favors for Friends whose work I respect.

Obviously I'm going to do my best to get the best results from each project no matter if it's paid or not.

And I'd say that directors who might think that because I am not going to be as emotionally attached to their baby as them that they are a better choice than me need to seriously think again.

Obviously, in a novice & novice scenario, it might be better if the director doesn't think the producer is competent enough to do a good job, perhaps they should handle it themselves. However, this assumes that the director is competent as well. Emotional investment doesn't necessarily relate to performance. Believe me in my days playing ball, there was nobody as emotionally invested in winning as I was...however, it didn't necessarily mean I was going to win (even in one on one battles talent can trump desire in a lot of cases).

If you as a director become overloaded with so much responsibility that it affects you work, then isn't even an inexperienced producer who can handle some of that burden going to improve the project? And I see lots of outfits that are director driven and because the director feels they're doing more than the others, they don't share credit as they should at times, etc. That's going to decrease the likelihood of those people wanting to help the next time around, etc.

I get "hired" by folks who know that I can get a project completed and get the right people involved. Am I emotionally invested? Not really. I'm a professional and am good at getting other professionals together who work well together and in specific conditions (tight schedules, limited resources, etc.). That doen't mean that I'm going to flake at any point...I'm fairly relentless at getting projects completed and finding solutions, etc.

I may not be willing to use "my favors" for every project but I can always find a solution and a way to get the project done.

So, perhaps some people have an expectation that is a little unrealistic in terms of finding a producer who's going to treat their personal project as the second coming. That doesn't mean that those producers can't help or even be instrumental at getting the best job possible done on a project.

-M
 
originally posted by mentatduke
thanks for updating the diary jls. Good stuff.

About finding a producer:
I'm beginning to think that finding a producer that meets our expectations may be next to impossible at this level. Why?

They're a hired hand. This makes getting them emotionally invested in the project difficult, and why we as directors often just wear the producer hat ourselves. Remember your rule? "if i can find a person who can light as well as me, i'll give up the position."

this means that we need to be able to find a producer that is willing to sweat and even bleed for the film. Just like we are. Tall order? You bet.
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martay said:
I produce a lot and often wonder why the heck i'm doing so many projects that are not my own in terms of origination.

There are 2 main categories that they fall into:

1) paid work

2) favors for friends whose work i respect.

Obviously i'm going to do my best to get the best results from each project no matter if it's paid or not.

And i'd say that directors who might think that because i am not going to be as emotionally attached to their baby as them that they are a better choice than me need to seriously think again.

Obviously, in a novice & novice scenario, it might be better if the director doesn't think the producer is competent enough to do a good job, perhaps they should handle it themselves. However, this assumes that the director is competent as well. Emotional investment doesn't necessarily relate to performance. Believe me in my days playing ball, there was nobody as emotionally invested in winning as i was...however, it didn't necessarily mean i was going to win (even in one on one battles talent can trump desire in a lot of cases).
...
So, perhaps some people have an expectation that is a little unrealistic in terms of finding a producer who's going to treat their personal project as the second coming. That doesn't mean that those producers can't help or even be instrumental at getting the best job possible done on a project.

-m
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Martin - I told you to just join us... "Join Us Martin" - zombie like voice. LOL

I understand your point Martin and I agree. The delimma that you face on the micro-budget level (remember this thread is for movies made under $40K) is that many times you don't get the "best" people for the job. What you get is well - whatever you get.

I think it's better for someone to learn as much as they can on their own, if their money is low, than to try and depend on someone who may or may not be there. Going back to what we've personally experienced together (Martin is in Atlanta - for those who don't know - like me). Say on "4 way" we get started, like the thread that got lots of attention on Atlanta Film community - and the budget was so low - no one was to get paid, but the money came from Aaron. So Aaron's feeding us and such, but one saturday I can't make it because I have a wedding and maybe you, Martin, can' t make it because you need to go out of town. Now Aaron has to fend for himself. If he doesn't have a producing bone in his body - he's in big trouble. Because he can't pay me, he can't stop me from making money that I need to live on. I had this problem with "Voices" with my DP. He's a freelance videographer, so several times he was AWOL making money to buy gas and to pay rent. It wasn't his fault, it was just life.

I think it's always best to get as many talented people working for you as possible, but on the micro-budget your challenge becomes trying to find people willing to give up their time, energy, money (gas) to make a project happen. It's like I said in the Mav thread in the business section of DVXuser, because of my knowledge in Directing / Producing / Writing / Audio / Lighting / Grip I'm easily worth $50K alone. Martin you're probably worth the same if not more, so that being said. How do you convince someone who doesn't need to be apart of your movie, to not only be apart, but to continue being a part - especially a producer who is mainly the person who keeps things together in the first place? Even though this is rhetorical, I'd love to "read" some comments that may help readers of the 24 Diary. - and thanks for coming out to my thread. :)
 
jls4 said:
How do you convince someone who doesn't need to be apart of your movie, to not only be apart, but to continue being a part - especially a producer who is mainly the person who keeps things together in the first place?
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Here's how I am able to continuously keep a good team together on micro/no-budget projects. Keep in mind, this is a process, so the fact that I put in my time selflessly with lots of people doesn't hurt when I get resources now.

However, here are the things that I find a must.

1) Respect your resources immensely. Remember as a director or even a producer everyone else on the set is doing you a service, not vice-versa. Sure there may be (and damn well better be) value in the end result of the project to them but ultimately, a lot of people are doing you a favor by spending their time on your set (even if you're paying because it's likely less than they can get down the street with a Commercial or Turner, etc.). So be sure they KNOW they're appreciated (This is a whole chapter by itself of things you can do RIGHT even when the money is wrong)

2) Allow them to do good work. They don't roll out of bed at 6AM on a Saturday morning just for the coffee and Krispy Cremes (as good as those are), they WANT to make movies, so let them make it as good as possible. Give them the opportunity to do their jobs well. Don't consistently screw the sound man out of getting good sound. Don't always tell the Gaffer to "forget" the additional light because "we have to move". Don't rush the actors through difficult scenes. Let them do their best and they'll feel like it was worth it to wipe the crust out of their eyes that morning.
Not to mention, the footage you get will be that much better in the end. Obviously this all sounds like common sense but often common sense flies out the window on a hectic film set.

3) Plan as meticulously as possible. We all know that indie filmmaking is a fluid situation but as much as possible do your homework so that everything goes as close to plan as possible. This step requires thought and lots of preparation and communication. "Just do it" does not fly here. Do it right, which stems from proper preparation. This will help prevent abuse of days going too far over schedule, etc. which feeds into the Respect issue in item 1)...respecting time is part of that.

4) Do the little things that can easily go by the wayside. At the end of the day, help load out. Make craft services as plentiful and with as much variety as possible. Be sure to take care of meals when they should be done (6 Hour mark) and plan it, don't just make arrangements when lunch hits. This takes up more of your time that could be used solving an issue or re-planning the rest of the shoot day with fresh eyes.

Let them know they did a great job. Or give them a constructive note that will help them (if you know of something). Acknowledge the actors publicly on the set when they wrap, no matter if you're in a rush to get to the next scene. Most of these things are common on professional sets but fairly rare on the ones with little experience running the show.

5) Follow-up. Thank them after they're done. I normally send a thank you to the team as a whole each weekend and then personal notes to each individual specific to their contribution.

Just these things I've found have kept people I've wanted to work with more than one time coming back for more whether I'm paying or not.

-M
 
Martay said:
Here's how I am able to continuously keep a good team together on micro/no-budget projects. Keep in mind, this is a process, so the fact that I put in my time selflessly with lots of people doesn't hurt when I get resources now.
...
Just these things I've found have kept people I've wanted to work with more than one time coming back for more whether I'm paying or not.
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Good points Martin, and you're right it's easy to consider them to be "common knowledge." And these are points that hopefully people can use to get them into a mindset of filmmaking. But I do recognize that you and I and many of the "top players" of DVXuser are not the "norm". Most producers (so they call themselves) as well as many "wanna-be" crew members aren't very good at what they do. I think through your experiences you've been able to attract more serious people to your set. In the beginnings, it'll be very difficult for a new filmmaker with an idea and a dream to get the kind of dedicated people that you are speaking of.

Let's use another practical example. "Pop Films" ("The Signal", "The Last Goodbye") decides to make a movie. Their reputation proceeds them. They can shoot a microbudget movie of $25K and it be worth $5 million because big names are attached because of their past. In fact, much of how "The Signal" was made was because of that. They had people who came out on their set for several days (that I knew personally) that wouldn't spend 3 hours on mine. Now that "Voices" is almost finished and many people have seen scenes from it, I get more people eager to work with our group.

Now for the average indie microbudget under $7K filmmaker living in Ohio - what do they do? As we can see in the example, once you get the "bandwagon" rolling, it's rolling - but what if Mentaduke or someone else can't get the badwagon rolling - so no one will take the time to help him.

I say all of this to tell you I AGREE with you about the importance of a good producer, but also let micro-budget filmmakers know that they sometimes may have to either jump into that saddle or they may have to go without. It's like with anything a micro-budget filmmaker may want to shoot with the RED but end up with a Canon HV20. The most important things are to 1. Learn, 2. Gain Experience, 3. Build a core group/portfolio and 4. make a movie - on this level.
 
Hey Martay. I think you and I are actually saying the same things. The one area I think you're misunderstanding however is this:
"I'm beginning to think that finding a producer that meets our expectations may be next to impossible at this level."

The key here is the phrase "at this level". This means, everyone on set is being paid very little if anything. Let's say the budget is $10,000. Where will that money go? The majority will likely go to food, equipment, and small stipends for the cast and crew. Stipends. NOT an actual wage.

So my point still stands. At this level, you must really do for self, but have several assistants that can deal with specific delegated tasks. You can't expect someone to setup a film for you (locations, casting, logistics). You have to have the big picture taken care of yourself, and delegate action items to your co-producers (who you need a lot of and which are essentially PAs). If filmmaking is war, these guys must be expendable so to speak.

Some will flake out and not show, but generally, you'll have a few who are there til the end. These are the guys who eventually form the core of your team after a few films together.

Out of curiosity, how much are you generally paid for your producing duties?

Thanks for the exchange.
 
Nathyn said:
I'm new to this thread, but it's great stuff. I'm starting from the beginning.

-Nate
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Dang, Nate you just finding my thread. LOL

I'm seriously considering moving it into "video" / "audio" form. Still working on the written though. I guess I could compile both of them together. Just think it would be easier with visual aids.

I'm also doing more post color correction work - definately not the super expert stuff, but I'm making my footage look like 200% better, so i may also cover some of that in the future.
 
I've been reading this thread off and on. Please tell me what are you guys talking about when you use the term "producer"? You don't seem to mean producer as in the Hollywood sense of what a producer is.

Do you know the producer is the guy that puts up the money?

Are you guys talking about associate producers, excutive producers, line producers, production managers? What? LOL
 
filmman said:
I've been reading this thread off and on. Please tell me what are you guys talking about when you use the term "producer"? You don't seem to mean producer as in the Hollywood sense of what a producer is.

Do you know the producer is the guy that puts up the money?

Are you guys talking about associate producers, excutive producers, line producers, production managers? What? LOL
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When I say "producer" I use it in the base general term, i.e. one that produces things - weather it be money, locations, props, etc. Because that's the first stage. On a no-budget indie A Director / Asst. Director / 2nd Asst. Director usually are the same person. So the Director must embody all the parts and pieces. Same goes with the "producer". When you get to Hollywood / Larger Budgets - producers get split up into Exec. Producers / Producers / Assoc Producers / Asst. Producers / Line Producers etc. So when I say "producer" I mean all of the above in one or two persons.
 
Just found this thread. What an unbelieveable amount or work and effort.

Thank you very very much for sharing. Man alive, truly and insperation.
 
Matt Grunau said:
Just found this thread. What an unbelieveable amount or work and effort.

Thank you very very much for sharing. Man alive, truly and insperation.
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Thanks - but more is coming. I'm starting to talk with a few people now about moving this to a video format, so I can "show" people what I'm talking about. :)
 
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