Bern Caughey
Veteran
I own Heliopan variable NDs for casual use on the GH2, but would never consider them a substitute for proper NDs due to the polarizing effects.
Talk Me In To Buying a C100
- Thread starter mhood
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indiawilds
Veteran
How is the low light ability of the BMC? How many stops less sensitive than the Canon? If you are not using it for run and gun situation, which it doesn't appear to be designed, then it might be fine. However, there would be some more costs associated with lighting the set.
A smaller and first time manufacturer will have many reliability issues. In electronic manufacturing industry it is a known fact. After a couple of years down the line, the reliability will improve. Based on my experience in senior positions in electronic manufacturing industry, I will not use a equipment from a first time camera manufacturer till the issues are sorted out. There are too many variables in the chain. I have seen suppliers, despite their best intentions, cannot cope up. And especially since the BMC so some "gold rush" kind of madness in ordering, suppliers will never be able to supply the right quality, quantity and in time. If you want to buy such an equipment for your livelihood, then I have no words.
BMC is an ambitious attempt. Lets be happy to have such a player in the industry. Don't expect the kid to run a race for you soon after its birth. Lets be realistic.
A smaller and first time manufacturer will have many reliability issues. In electronic manufacturing industry it is a known fact. After a couple of years down the line, the reliability will improve. Based on my experience in senior positions in electronic manufacturing industry, I will not use a equipment from a first time camera manufacturer till the issues are sorted out. There are too many variables in the chain. I have seen suppliers, despite their best intentions, cannot cope up. And especially since the BMC so some "gold rush" kind of madness in ordering, suppliers will never be able to supply the right quality, quantity and in time. If you want to buy such an equipment for your livelihood, then I have no words.
BMC is an ambitious attempt. Lets be happy to have such a player in the industry. Don't expect the kid to run a race for you soon after its birth. Lets be realistic.
Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
I understand this is the C300/C100 section of the forum but the pure bias is appalling. One poster said you can't use the BMC as an A cam when people use 7D's and 5D's all the time as there only cam. So that makes no sense, that is really just trying to justify your point by stretching the truth. Also I agree that the C100 will be better to hand hold out of the box, but it is not ideal, tt has a freaking fixed EVF for god sakes! I think you can use both in concert with one another and I plan to do that. I am going back in forth between the FS700 and C100 and if the C100 just had 1080 60 it would almost be a no brainer aside from its limited codec. I am just really angry that Canon does this because they can, they can cripple a camera and then overcharge you for it because so many people will still buy it. And that feeling is one the main reasons I am leaning away from the C100 superior ergonomics to FS700 and all.
Mark, I know you're on the fence right now, dunno if you asked this on the other forum but here's my perspective knowing your level of understanding of this stuff:
C100 - 7,200.00 after additional batteries and cards. That's a rough yet fair estimate.
Mostly compact, all in one solution. Not necessarily needing a rig, you could run with this out of the box.
On the post side, you wouldn't have to worry about grading which--as we've briefly discussed before, you might have trouble with handling.
Blackmagic - 6,500 after Viewfactor cage, batteries/charger, external viewing option (if you don't have one), SSDs, Screw on NDs (people saying you have to have a mattebox, kinda laughable... it's not like the C100 comes with a mattebox), possibly a solution to feed audio into camera. (Mentioning post upgrades is hilarious, sounds like HVX200 days... when half of us didn't even upgrade anything and were still able to deal with the footage. Same with RED, I know I didn't upgrade anything when it first came out and did SEVERAL projects on one of the earliest cameras out there. Silly stuff. )
That amount will get you shooting ProRes with an option of RAW when you want/need it.
In the beginning, it won't be easy to post for anyone that's not familiar with it, and will add time (not necessarily MONEY either.)
I think another poster here says it well, ProRes will work for post just as well as any other compressed codec, so that point is moot. Don't know why people keep bringing it up.
What is not moot, though, is that it WILL be a smaller and easier camera to work with, the C100, than Blackmagic. IMO if you're using the latter, you're after the best image quality you can get under the cost of a C300 and you don't care about rigs, you don't care about the learning curve in post and you either already work with RAW/Somewhat RAW (Guys like me) or you're willing to do what it takes.
That simple. They are truly two different cameras aimed at two different kinds of shooters. Although either can do both documentary/talking heads (come on, people shoot docs on Epic etc, really isn't rocket science) and either can do cinema. Neither have a built-in slow mo option as of right now.
Don't buy on hype, buy on the utilities that you need and are comfortable with.
From my POV your decision is pretty simple... You'd be better off with a C100 that lets you auto-pilot to a large degree, versus something that's going to require a large learning curve.
C100 - 7,200.00 after additional batteries and cards. That's a rough yet fair estimate.
Mostly compact, all in one solution. Not necessarily needing a rig, you could run with this out of the box.
On the post side, you wouldn't have to worry about grading which--as we've briefly discussed before, you might have trouble with handling.
Blackmagic - 6,500 after Viewfactor cage, batteries/charger, external viewing option (if you don't have one), SSDs, Screw on NDs (people saying you have to have a mattebox, kinda laughable... it's not like the C100 comes with a mattebox), possibly a solution to feed audio into camera. (Mentioning post upgrades is hilarious, sounds like HVX200 days... when half of us didn't even upgrade anything and were still able to deal with the footage. Same with RED, I know I didn't upgrade anything when it first came out and did SEVERAL projects on one of the earliest cameras out there. Silly stuff. )
That amount will get you shooting ProRes with an option of RAW when you want/need it.
In the beginning, it won't be easy to post for anyone that's not familiar with it, and will add time (not necessarily MONEY either.)
I think another poster here says it well, ProRes will work for post just as well as any other compressed codec, so that point is moot. Don't know why people keep bringing it up.
What is not moot, though, is that it WILL be a smaller and easier camera to work with, the C100, than Blackmagic. IMO if you're using the latter, you're after the best image quality you can get under the cost of a C300 and you don't care about rigs, you don't care about the learning curve in post and you either already work with RAW/Somewhat RAW (Guys like me) or you're willing to do what it takes.
That simple. They are truly two different cameras aimed at two different kinds of shooters. Although either can do both documentary/talking heads (come on, people shoot docs on Epic etc, really isn't rocket science) and either can do cinema. Neither have a built-in slow mo option as of right now.
Don't buy on hype, buy on the utilities that you need and are comfortable with.
From my POV your decision is pretty simple... You'd be better off with a C100 that lets you auto-pilot to a large degree, versus something that's going to require a large learning curve.
Dafilman21
Carbonite Member
Thank you Kholi for bringing a true unbiased opinion to the discussion. As I said earlier I think both would work great together ESECIALLY for documentary shooting. You can run and gun with the C100 and shoot the talking heads with the BMC in a controlled lighting environment that will make it sing.
The only learning curve I will face is Resolve and figuring out those rediculous shutter angles. I edit just fine with CS5.5 and ProRes works gr8. I don't know about the rough WB settings with the BMC. I really wonder if EVERYTHING I shoot with it will need WB "fixed" in post. I'm pretty sure I can learn to "fix" the FILM ProRes with CS6 and I'm wondering how the VIDEO (709) will work with a "fuzzy" WB (as compared to the custom WB I take off a digital target with my 7D). I already have a rig...not a cage but a set of rails with a shoulder mount...an Editrol DAR and Lectrosonix wireless lavs. I have most all of the EF lenses I need (maybe a Tokina 11-16 if I need it). I'm hoping not to have to do RAW until I'm darned good and ready to dump the cash into a new computer for Resolve.
I know, I'm super wishy washy but I've been doing video all my adult life and learning curves have yet to stop me. But no...I'm not a cinematographer and have no aspirations to become one.
I know, I'm super wishy washy but I've been doing video all my adult life and learning curves have yet to stop me. But no...I'm not a cinematographer and have no aspirations to become one.
Realistically, you don't have to use Resolve.
It will be no worse to slap on a pre-existing LUT (or filter, look depending on what you use) in Premiere, FCP, etc to the ProRes 422HQ than it would to have derived from AVCHD with a camera-set look. I think one thing Blackmagic's done well is marketing, and the camera does come with Resolve, but the footage is still just footage.
You manipulate where you choose (speaking about ProRes, but even CinemaDNG you can process in other applications).
Has anyone confirmed that the C100 has the exact same DR as C300? Haven't been keeping up.
It will be no worse to slap on a pre-existing LUT (or filter, look depending on what you use) in Premiere, FCP, etc to the ProRes 422HQ than it would to have derived from AVCHD with a camera-set look. I think one thing Blackmagic's done well is marketing, and the camera does come with Resolve, but the footage is still just footage.
You manipulate where you choose (speaking about ProRes, but even CinemaDNG you can process in other applications).
Has anyone confirmed that the C100 has the exact same DR as C300? Haven't been keeping up.
Mr. Hicks what bothers me is that the AfterGlow footage all has a definite orange hue to the model's "fire engine red" jacket. I'm afraid of only a few white balance settings as opposed to spot on white balance with a custom whitebalance approach. I quite often don't need to do anything with my 7D footage but drag it on the timeline and get started. I'm afraid that will not happen with the BMC and my post effort is about to gr8ly increase.
IIRC, a couple of folks have said that the C100 has the exact same DR as the C300 at its HDMI output.
I think truly the one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that the C100 has the option of an optimized output through the use of a recorder. A Hyperdeck shuttle costs $350. That output should be the same as the best from the C300. I strongly suspect that it could give the prores 422HQ output from the BMC a run for the money. Theoretically, the BMC should have an extra stop compared to the C100, and is 10bit vs. 8bit. But the Canon builds the image in another way. Honestly, I think that C100 + recorder could definitely be used for cinematic style work. It is far more interesting to me than shooting in body on AVCHD. Given the lessened aliasing/moire, easier ergonomics and far less rolling shutter, it seems pretty clear that it is the better choice for the OP.
It likely will not unless Blackmagic opens up the camera for custom Video LUTS. If that happens, which I don't know why it could not or should not, then things change drastically. Really can't figure out why this isn't an option right now, but maybe it can't be done for some reason?
I'll wait for a chart.
Depends on if someone wants to run DNxHD, and that also means adding something to power it as well.
Now you're talking 7600~7800 for a setup, including SSDs.
That's how I would shoot C100 hands down, bypassing the AVCHD immediately. I guess we'll see how they compare, so far I'm willing to bet on Blackmagic's ProRes still sort of stomping on the C100 in overall IQ.
In an ideal world one would have enough money to own both a C300 and Blackmagic.
Oh well.
That's just me, though.
Edit; I still think Mark would be better suited with a more auto-pilot camera like the C100.
indiawilds
Veteran
I agree.
Infact, one should buy a camera which can handle the majority of the tasks. For the rest buy the other camera if you can afford it. Else beg/borrow/rent.
In future, I have a plan to shoot a specific wildlife documentary. I am pushing it back by another year and starting another wildlife film now. And to shoot some part of it, i will get a BMC so that I can shoot from one mountain top to another mountain top. Despite all my long Canon tele-photo lenses, the BMC with its tiny sensor will actually be usable for those specific applications. By that time all the bugs etc of the BMC would have been sorted out as well. When paying large amounts of money to buy cameras, we need to be dispassionate.
I was pretty down on the AVCHD codec as well due to the seemingly low bit-rate. But I found a video of the Sony FS700 which uses the exact(seemingly) 24Mb/s AVCHD compared against Pro Res 220Mb/s 4:2:2 captured off the SDI port. There is very little difference at 400% magnification.
I'm using a PC so I actually prefer the highly space efficient codecs, I've never been a big fan of for example the All-I compression the 5d mark III does. Editting these files is painless in Adobe Premiere CS6 and honestly one of the biggest time sinks is moving video files around.
These MPEG2 codecs at 50-100Mb/s aren't necessarily going to put out an image of superior quality in proportion to the increased file size.
If the speed of hard drives/processors and data transfer cables were up to it, obviously it would be best to shoot everything in Raw(like it is with stills photography). But the technology just isn't there yet and I need a camera that can offer me up a compressed format.
Like there is colour grading and there is total image correction, As long as you can hit your white balance in the field there is still plenty of room to grade these files in post.
I think the Black Magic camera would be a great in studio camera and blow the C100 away when it came to things like green screen work, but if you are just doing contrast and exposure adjustments with some creative tinting I don't think the C100 would let you down(even recording to SD).
philiplipetz
Veteran
On subtle color gradients ProRes will be better (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9w1MDxf2ok) but many people will not notice the difference, especially in web work. Many AVCHD implementations are more contrasty but that can be handled by in camera adjustments.
However, there is a huge difference in situations that strain the codec, like detailed scenes with motion such as leaves. http://vimeo.com/24985734
Most people for most situations will be happy with AVCHD but it most definitely has limits and can fall apart if you go beyond those limits.
Having said that we are doing a project with many hundreds of hours of oral history and will probably record in AVCHD simply to minimize storage requirements. However, when we know we have an important interview that will definitely be used we are considering ProRes. Will there be a difference, yes, but we could not acquire and grade and wrangle 50-100TB of ProRes footage with our limited staff. We will just surround AVCHD interviews with ProRes footage and let the story distract the eyes of viewers. However, when we know that we are in situations that will break AVCHD, such as outdoor interviews near moving plants, we will switch to ProRes becuase AVCHD is, to our eyes, unwatchable when it breaks down.
However, there is a huge difference in situations that strain the codec, like detailed scenes with motion such as leaves. http://vimeo.com/24985734
Most people for most situations will be happy with AVCHD but it most definitely has limits and can fall apart if you go beyond those limits.
Having said that we are doing a project with many hundreds of hours of oral history and will probably record in AVCHD simply to minimize storage requirements. However, when we know we have an important interview that will definitely be used we are considering ProRes. Will there be a difference, yes, but we could not acquire and grade and wrangle 50-100TB of ProRes footage with our limited staff. We will just surround AVCHD interviews with ProRes footage and let the story distract the eyes of viewers. However, when we know that we are in situations that will break AVCHD, such as outdoor interviews near moving plants, we will switch to ProRes becuase AVCHD is, to our eyes, unwatchable when it breaks down.
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Darren Levine
Veteran
chalk me up as on the fence now as well
paid in full on a BMC, but have shoots coming up and the c100 is indeed tempting.
have any charts been shot for the c100, i've heard the c300 resolves true to 1080, would be interesting to see how well it uprezzes to 2.5k for sh*ts and giggles.
im on a crusade to reduce my number of cameras to 2 (excluding gopros)
the 3 elements i desire, which can exist in either of the two cameras are:
Small/lowlight
cinematic
eng zoom
my plan thus far was BMC + VG30 to replace my ex1/5d/af100
but the c100 could do it along with a hmc40/150. but the price difference between these two combinations is 3000, not a small chunk indeed. ($9000 vs $6000) im including a hyperdeck in the c100 cost
paid in full on a BMC, but have shoots coming up and the c100 is indeed tempting.
have any charts been shot for the c100, i've heard the c300 resolves true to 1080, would be interesting to see how well it uprezzes to 2.5k for sh*ts and giggles.
im on a crusade to reduce my number of cameras to 2 (excluding gopros)
the 3 elements i desire, which can exist in either of the two cameras are:
Small/lowlight
cinematic
eng zoom
my plan thus far was BMC + VG30 to replace my ex1/5d/af100
but the c100 could do it along with a hmc40/150. but the price difference between these two combinations is 3000, not a small chunk indeed. ($9000 vs $6000) im including a hyperdeck in the c100 cost
Erik Naso
Veteran
Is the HDMI out 4:2:2?
Yes it is.
It's tough going over to that forum and reading all the things going on with the BMC. I feel sad for all those people who have prepaid and are seemingly stuck. There seems to be little or no progress moving forward.
For a little bit more money, I would think getting the C100 instead would be worth it. It is as close in terms of value and quality as you're probably going to get for a while. I mean, if it's just for a hobby I guess people can wait, but how many jobs between now and when BM gets their sh*t together will it take to make up for the price difference? Not too many I would guess.
philiplipetz
Veteran
philiplipetz
Veteran
On the detachable handle is a built in stereo mic, on the body nothing but a 3.5mm plug.