Talk Me In To Buying a C100

M

mhood

Veteran
I've preordered and prepaid for a BMC back in April but the longer shipping is delayed, the more I learn about equipping the BMC for use and the more intimidated I become with the RAW workflow and Resolve platform requirements, the more attractive something like the C100 becomes. I do mostly location corporate talking heads across the desk stuff and have been doing more and more location green screen work with a 7D. I edit with CS5.5 (I have CS6 ready to load up when I get a chance) on my Win7 64bit Lenovo laptop.

What is there about the C100 that makes over twice the price of the base BMC worth it?
 
I've already posted this link on this thread some time ago but for me (doing at least some similar stuff to you, i.e. corporate work) it's worth it for the ergonomics and easy workflow. I think the magic-cam will be a tremendous game changer in the market place but right now its not what I need for the work I do and the way I like to operate. Not everyone has the same needs as me but the reasons I chose a C100 over the BMC (and the FS700 etc.) are on the link. Maybe something in there will let you view it from a new perspective - I don't know - but I hope this helps.

http://www.shootingimage.co.uk/MoreInformation/CanonC100/CanonC100.html
 
mhood said:
I've preordered and prepaid for a BMC back in April but the longer shipping is delayed, the more I learn about equipping the BMC for use and the more intimidated I become with the RAW workflow and Resolve platform requirements, the more attractive something like the C100 becomes. I do mostly location corporate talking heads across the desk stuff and have been doing more and more location green screen work with a 7D. I edit with CS5.5 (I have CS6 ready to load up when I get a chance) on my Win7 64bit Lenovo laptop.

What is there about the C100 that makes over twice the price of the base BMC worth it?
Click to expand...


especially with the recent audio problems the total cost of purchasing a C100 is about the same as a rigged BMCC and it will be more portable with the ability to do quick work with AVCHD. The total cost of ownership, no need for expensive storage for uncompressed files and high quality SSDs and a dual GPU computer to run Resolve will be much much lower. And it will be much easier to use, and no worries about repair (some people report that Blackmagic repairs can take months), and easier to transport since it is self contained, and the 12 stops DR with C Log will be very close to the reported 12.5 stops with BMCC ProRes log.

Andy posted while I was writing this, look it his blog on why he ordered a C100. It is a thorough statement of the C100's advantages. Our team members are ordering at least two, so I will be able to work with it. Combined with Brian Weed's custom profiles we expect, when the job demands it, to do work that only a pixel peeper will tell from BMCC.

Now I expect the BMCC fans to flame me, but I don't care. For day in and day out work this is the better solution. We expect to film about one thousand hours of footage next year, and that would require 500 TB to 100TB of storage for the BMCC, double that with backup. Skipping the storage and post processing requirements, there is no way we could set up a cinema camera like the BMCC or a RED or an Alexa quickly enough to do do the many setups required.

The BMCC is great but it is a cinema camera designed for cinema work flows and many people are going to be disappointed whe they try to do video work with it.
 
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Also the C100 has one button AF, exposure and WB. You need that outside of a controlled set. changing conditions are what video cameras are designed for, controlled sets or at least costant light feed cinema cameras. BM was very upfront about the fact that the BMCC is a cinema camera. Just becuase you want to do a film eventually that does not mean that a cinema camera will work for the majority of your work.
 
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Philip is very right there. I often get business clients who walk me round a factory and say can you just get a quick shot of this or that machine or process. Not all factories are beautifully lit (so the low light capabilities of the C100 will be key), there is sometimes dust or spray in the air and the ability to get shots in run-n-gun mode is a must for a lot of the type of work I do (mostly on a EX3 or 7D at present). Sure, I use lighting, tripods and carefully planned/set-up shots whenever I get the opportunity but that's not a given with some corporate clients.
 
All good considerations and thanks for the link Andy, it was an excellent read. I'm anxious to see some footage and maybe even a shoot out with the BMC. How is the in-camera audio on the C100? JuicedLink Riggy required?
 
The BMC can shoot ProRes too, so hardware and storage requirements can be adjusted if necessary. Shooting an edit friendly 4:2:2 codec with the C100 will cost another 1K for an Atomos Ninja2 and will also change the (granted very good) form factor.
With ProRes, SSD costs are comparable (better?) to SD cards cost too, so the BMC stays the cheaper option compared to the C100. Form factor wise I´m sure we will see a lot of different handle options coming, since the BMC also has Lanc control, I wonder how long it will take for one of the rig builders to offer a C100/ENG style side-grip with build in start/stop...
I´m still a little hesitant about the BMC, but I wanted to point out, that the "big RAW neon sign" may be shining a wrong light on Blackmagics offer ;o)
 
Sorry to keep posting but a totally ignored advantage of the C100 is that for over 60 Canon lenses it electronically compensates for lens deficiencies. This was huge in the micro four thirds world, and it is enough that I am trading our team's third party lenses for Canon.

I imagine that it will compensate for vignetting, and I hope for distortion and chromatic aberration. We will see.
 
well, recorder for c100 can be smaller then ninja as c100 is not 10bit u can use 8bit nano flash and get 50 - 220 mbps for less then 2000$ for everything included(recorder, cf cards, and power)..... and here u go - still compact , still light, edit friendly and accepted by global network
 
anatusa said:
well, recorder for c100 can be smaller then ninja as c100 is not 10bit u can use 8bit nano flash and get 50 - 220 mbps for less then 2000$ for everything included(recorder, cf cards, and power)..... and here u go - still compact , still light, edit friendly and accepted by global network
Click to expand...
So you just added even another 1K (over the Ninja2) to the equation, pushing the C100 to almost tripple the cost of the BMC...?
 
I'm looking at buying a C100 and maybe one BMDCC. Two different cameras for different things. I think C100 is far from perfect but when you have alot of EF lenses and want something not horrendous overpriced I see the C100 as a sain choice.
 
Spartacus said:
So you just added even another 1K (over the Ninja2) to the equation, pushing the C100 to almost tripple the cost of the BMC...?
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there is no triple the price over bmcc, as to me bmcc its self hardly could be named as camcorder...... too many things i would have to put there in order to make it work the way i need. hardly it can be the only camera for some one and u ll end up with big rig right away just to make it work the way c100 could out of the box.....

if some one would ask me to name the + and - of bmcc , there would 1 + and huge line of -. and price i dont think its a plus , its more like a minus to me as i think its too much for something like that.. but of course no one has to agree with me, its just what i feel! the + i would give to it just for being on a market , and the more like BM will come on market the better, as it, i hope, will help to big players to reduces the prices and bring better tech on market.

to me if choosing between bmcc and c100 - i dont think there is something to choose from at all. right now i see bmcc only as an add on(an expansive toy if i may) to some other cam..
 
anatusa said:
well, recorder for c100 can be smaller then ninja as c100 is not 10bit u can use 8bit nano flash and get 50 - 220 mbps for less then 2000$ for everything included(recorder, cf cards, and power)..... and here u go - still compact , still light, edit friendly and accepted by global network
Click to expand...

is nano flash HDMI??
is C100 4:2:2 HDMI out or 4:2:0??
 
anatusa said:
there is no triple the price over bmcc, as to me bmcc its self hardly could be named as camcorder...... too many things i would have to put there in order to make it work the way i need. hardly it can be the only camera for some one and u ll end up with big rig right away just to make it work the way c100 could out of the box.....

if some one would ask me to name the + and - of bmcc , there would 1 + and huge line of -. and price i dont think its a plus , its more like a minus to me as i think its too much for something like that.. but of course no one has to agree with me, its just what i feel! the + i would give to it just for being on a market , and the more like BM will come on market the better, as it, i hope, will help to big players to reduces the prices and bring better tech on market.

to me if choosing between bmcc and c100 - i dont think there is something to choose from at all. right now i see bmcc only as an add on(an expansive toy if i may) to some other cam..
Click to expand...

Don´t know how your post can help the OP in his decision making. So let´s get back to some facts, not opinions:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889545-REG/Canon_EOS_C100_EF_Cinema.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ent_Design_nanoFlash_Bundle_with_Battery.html

Those two together - as you suggested - come in at 8.500$.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ic_Design_BMD_CINECAM26KEF_Cinema_Camera.html

The BMC already records in a ready to edit higher-end codec (ProRes) so those 3000$ stay.

Besides lenses and recording media, which you need for both, that´s almost triple the price to record to a higher end codec.

Further SSDs are actually CHEAPER than pro SD cards:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...DXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...chnology_CT512M4SSD2CCA_512GB_m4_SSD_2_5.html

Again speaking about storage requirements for a non-raw, but higher end compressed codec workflow.

Does the C100 offer more for the price? Well, it has a lot of pro docu/ENG features, build in ND to name a big one. But again the difference is 5.500.
With a Nanoflash, you also need extra external power and a way of mounting the recorder, so again, not much of a difference.
German manufacturer ReWo has just announced this: http://www.eoshd.com/content/9078/first-look-at-the-new-rewo-blackmagic-cinema-camera-cage
It will be pricey around 1000$ but it has a build in battery for longer shooting times with the BMC. (Cheaper solutions will follow for sure.)
Still 4.500 more to spend to get the Canon...

There are many reasons to choose one of the two over the other, but saying the BMC ends up in the same price range as the C100 to make it "usable" or needs a big rig "to make it work the way c100 could out of the box..." is just not true.
 
Problem with BMC is glass-Plain and Simple. Lots of guys invested in PL,EF or Zeiss lenses. Sensor size is a problem here. That $3,000 "wunderkid" will be nuked within 3 months by Full Frame japanese products. How many guys on this forum produce feature Films in Raw 4:4:4 and "get paid". If you have budget and SCRIPT you can rent cameras like Scarlet cheap to do film TODAY. 90% of paid work for Web or TV is done on 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 where things must be done QUICK and cheap... for that $7,500 C100 with Ninja is far more Logical to own :-)
 
Spartacus said:
Don´t know how your post can help the OP in his decision making. So let´s get back to some facts, not opinions:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/889545-REG/Canon_EOS_C100_EF_Cinema.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ent_Design_nanoFlash_Bundle_with_Battery.html

Those two together - as you suggested - come in at 8.500$.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ic_Design_BMD_CINECAM26KEF_Cinema_Camera.html

The BMC already records in a ready to edit higher-end codec (ProRes) so those 3000$ stay.

Besides lenses and recording media, which you need for both, that´s almost triple the price to record to a higher end codec.

Further SSDs are actually CHEAPER than pro SD cards:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...DXPA_064G_A75_Extreme_Pro_64GB_SDHC_SDXC.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...chnology_CT512M4SSD2CCA_512GB_m4_SSD_2_5.html

Again speaking about storage requirements for a non-raw, but higher end compressed codec workflow.

Does the C100 offer more for the price? Well, it has a lot of pro docu/ENG features, build in ND to name a big one. But again the difference is 5.500.
With a Nanoflash, you also need extra external power and a way of mounting the recorder, so again, not much of a difference.
German manufacturer ReWo has just announced this: http://www.eoshd.com/content/9078/first-look-at-the-new-rewo-blackmagic-cinema-camera-cage
It will be pricey around 1000$ but it has a build in battery for longer shooting times with the BMC. (Cheaper solutions will follow for sure.)
Still 4.500 more to spend to get the Canon...

There are many reasons to choose one of the two over the other, but saying the BMC ends up in the same price range as the C100 to make it "usable" or needs a big rig "to make it work the way c100 could out of the box..." is just not true.
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c100 is a ready to work/run camcorder - bmc is not.
1st u dont 95mb sd card with 24mb codec - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/839982-REG/SanDisk_SDSDRX3_064G_A21_64GB_SDXC_Memory_Card.html - will work just fine, i use much slower - 30mb/s card with my af101 and never had problems

also u dont need that nano bundle - as for sure u would not need sdi cable with c100. also i would not buy nanoflash new now as its just not practical at that moment but even so u can find the new nano cheaper...

when u speak about bmc i dont know why u dont talk about buying mate box and nd filters..... but also after u ll put all that dont forget about shoulder support....

c100 on other hand will remain very light even with nano and small battery . i am not an AF fan but that function does not hurt..... IS does not hurt ether(on bmc is not supported currently).
Also right now based on reviews filming with bmc - is kind of a blind guessing.... + FOV and DOF issues... btw what about rolling shater?

would some one find bmc useful? for sure, but in my opinion not as major/the only/exclusive cam to use.

Also after counting all expenses the price difference is not that bad already, and also with c100 - u can go light(weight), u can film almost in no light situation, and no needs in HUGE files (i would like 4:2:2 50-100mbps)

btw for pro use i would think about pro support as well, i am sure i can trust canon on that..... but what about BMC ? especially in eu? is it trusted? how long will takes? where do i have to ship it for repair? who pays for it?
 
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anatusa said:
c100 is a ready to work/run camcorder - bmc is not.
1st u dont 95mb sd card with 24mb codec - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/839982-REG/SanDisk_SDSDRX3_064G_A21_64GB_SDXC_Memory_Card.html - will work just fine, i use much slower - 30mb/s card with my af101 and never had problems

also u dont need that nano bundle - as for sure u would not need sdi cable with c100. also i would not buy nanoflash new now as its just not practical at that moment but even so u can find the new nano cheaper...

when u speak about bmc i dont know why u dont talk about buying mate box and nd filters..... but also after u ll put all that dont forget about shoulder support....
Click to expand...

So, with cheaper cards storage media costs about the same per GB and of course you need more when using a higher bitrate codec like prores.
Thing is, I don´t get why having a limited codec suddenly becomes a plus when talking about cameras?
Everyone is complaining about crippled HDMI outs of the various DSLRs, but when it comes to the BMC, people start complaining about disc space/recording times for ProRes?
I didn´t speak of Mattebox/ND filters, cause to compare it to the C100 I would just use a VariND, if you want graduated ND or Pro-Mist and such on the Canon, you would also need a MB with filter tray.
And shoulder support? The C100 doesn´t have one, right? So again BOTH would need one.

To make the BMC easier to pick up and shoot, in a way comparable to the C100, you would only need sth like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Camera-Flas...=Camera_Flash_Accessories&hash=item19cca46ea0 or this http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAMIYA-GRIP..._Camera_Straps_Hand_Grips&hash=item2322ee5d6f

I´m gonna leave this now. I just wanted to state, that both cameras can be used in similar ways, be it puristic or pimped out.
The C100 will be a great performer, I´m sure about that.
The BMC will stay the rebel cam with a hard to beat initial price tag, way under half the C100s...

All the best, Spart
 
Spartacus said:
Thing is, I don´t get why having a limited codec suddenly becomes a plus when talking about cameras?

And shoulder support? The C100 doesn´t have one, right? So again BOTH would need one.
Click to expand...

what i dont get is why a very limited cam becomes a plus, i dont find codec as a critical thing..... but its just me

thing is u can run c100 with out shoulder support, bmc u cant.... simple
 
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