Take that Sony!

It's very popular to bash the incumbant however however you need to carefully think through just what it might mean.

Sony gave us SACD but we chose mp3.

Jim gave us RED but they seem to be choosing YouTube.

Talking about market share is one thing, what matters overall is the size of the market. The last cobbler in London had 100% of the market.
 
Barry_Green said:
How about LTO3 drives then? 640 megabits per second (over twice as fast) and $3800 (half the cost)... any reason that couldn't be considered?
Click to expand...
Interesting Barry, I took a look at these at Dell and you can get a 2U Rack with 1 or 2 LTO3 Drives:

Native capacity: 400GB
Native performance: 80MB/s
Reliability: 250K Hrs MTBF @ 100%
Media used: LTO3
BackRead compatible: LTO2, LTO1
Interface: LVD SCSI

Giving a total of either 400GB or 800GB storage with 640Mb Performance. Respective Prices $2,729 or $4,829, but interestingly they offer an option to lease it for $73 or $128 a month (48 Monthly Payments) and at $68 per 400GB tape well within the range of most Indies. Buy a Portable Rack with casters to take with you on set and it might be a v good way of capturing RAW data from the camera. I'm no expert though, whether there are particular problems using this with the camera is beyond me :)

This isn't fast enough for RAW though is it? that's 323MB/s yeah? But more than capable of securely recording Redcode Raw at 27MB/s.
 
FatBird19 said:
????

on a similar note, barbers gave us haircuts but we seem to be choosing pizza.
Click to expand...

No, what he's saying is Jim is giving us ultimate clarity in acquisition, but the masses don't seem interested; rather they're flocking to the lowest-resolution easily-accessible distribution media, being YouTube or Podcasts or cell-phone video or whatever.

It's the age-old battle of quality vs. convenience. And convenience wins every time. The immediate future of reaching a mass audience doesn't depend on how high-quality your video source is, it depends on whether you can reach the people. And the people aren't choosing to spend their money to get HD broadcasts, they're instead spending their time watching YouTube and downloading podcasts and such.

At least, I believe that's the point robroysd was trying to make.
 
That what you just said Barry, is probably why RED will do quite well in the foreign markets, in my opinion. A lot of the rest of the world doesn't have "TV dinners" and such. Give them a 4k camera at a price point they can actually touch, and they might just flock to it.
Here, it may take some time. But, in the meantime, there are plenty of folks like those of you all here on this site, that will be more than willing to help get RED off the ground. And, while the Mega-Studios may not buy into RED outright, there are a few directors, who make huge flicks who live a little more on the outskirts of the mainstream industry, who would probably snatch them up. The rest is just icing from there, aye?

Jason
 
I agree with this stance for the most part, but the price differential between a CD and a SACD is almost moot (whereas the price difference between RED and pretty much any consumer camera is enormous). They really aren't in the same market.
 
Yes, but the price difference between Red and what it would really be competing against is also enormous in the other direction. Red and consumer cameras aren't in the same market that is correct.

Jason
 
Haakon said:
But mp3s, CDs, and SACDs are. That was my only point...
Click to expand...
Right, but in those cases, again, convenience trumps quality.

Bring out a new format that lets the user do something he's never done before, or does it far more conveniently, and he'll buy it. Bring out a new format that does nothing for the user other than improve quality, and he'll pass. (Which is why HD-DVD and blu-ray are doomed).

CD wiped out cassette not because of audio quality, but because you didn't have to rewind it. And you could jump from track to track, something basically impossible on cassette. And it wouldn't get tangled up and it wouldn't break and you could take it in a car (unlike an LP). Added quality was a bonus, but not the main selling point.

Jump forward to SACD/DVD-Audio: what do they give you other than quality? Nothing. So the consumer passes, just like they did with LaserDisc. Just like they did with DCC.

But look at MP3 -- worse quality, sure, but now you can download. Now you can fill up an iPod Nano with your entire collection of music, in an object the size of a pack of chewing gum. Consumers flocked to 'em. Worse quality didn't matter, as long as it was "good enough". The convenience is what made it a hit, and in fact changed the way we buy music.

So it will be with Red. 35mm style DOF with no adapters necessary, no spinning ground glass, no upside-down footage, no mounting-the-monitor-upside-down, no "magnet on the LCD"... that's a major benefit. That's enough to get 'em to sell all the REDs they ever make, 4K or no 4K. Throw in some tapeless acquisition and the F900 is dead in the water. Again, 4k or no 4K; I'd be plenty happy (overjoyed, actually) with 1080p @ 4:4:4 and variable frame rates!
 
Just imagine in the future,things like 35mm CMOS camcorders will become consumer daddy cams! :O

The pace of modern technology, *I am Loving it* (no connection with McDonalds)
 
pizza, yummy

pizza, yummy

on a similar note, barbers gave us haircuts but we seem to be choosing pizza
Click to expand...
Jim gave us RED but they seem to be choosing YouTube.
Click to expand...

People care more about free and now, than about quality and cost. People choose YouTube over Red (and blu-ray.) Get it?

Getting back on topic,
I have gotten some e-mails from the local rental houses encouraging me to see the CineAlta etc. Sony ain't dead yet. They go to the local film festivals and show their overpriced wares. The sales reps are aware of RED but say there are questions about RED being able to deliver.

About YouTube and pizza/haircuts, don't turn your nose up at the small small screen. Sanyo makes a cheap video camera that can recored in iPod video format and 720p. I saw a Nikon digital camera that can send photos Wi-Fi without a computer to the internet. If Sony made a video camera that only filmed in YouTube format and could send video Wi-Fi to the YouTube site, I would buy it. All Miami Beach is going to be Wi-Fi.

Don't knock Sony or YouTube. There is a new buisness model out there for the little film maker. MetaCafe. Google is going to adapt the MetaCafe compensation plan for YouTube soon. Read about it at the link below.
http://digg.com/tech_news/Metacafe_Offers_You_5_for_Every_1000_views_To_Your_Video
http://www.rev2.org/2006/10/30/metacafe-offers-to-compensate-producers/

ummmm, fudgems. Let them eat fudgems.
 
"Just good enough" is true with consumers (unfortunately). But the BIG SCREEN is another story. That is why DV never made it as a "film" format, even though it is convenient as hell. The studios are begging for convenient, but the threshold of quality must be met 1st. That's our goal.

Maybe then we can work on a consumer version?

Jim
 
Jannard said:
"Just good enough" is true with consumers (unfortunately). But the BIG SCREEN is another story. That is why DV never made it as a "film" format, even though it is convenient as hell. The studios are begging for convenient, but the threshold of quality must be met 1st. That's our goal.

Maybe then we can work on a consumer version?

Jim
Click to expand...

a super8 style camera with 2K REDCODE in every sports store before 2008
insane frame rates, flip handle for steadicam and helmet mounts

what else...
 
i know, i know. but as rule of thumb: 90% are ingest, 10% mastering when it comes to a recorder....

Got it. If you look at HDV and XDCAM HD, they are not very good mastering formats but Sony still makes VTRs for both products. There seems to be a market for ingest VTRs.

With HDV, Sony didn't really make a VTR that had HD-SDI out. This isn't solved by 3rd party products (Miranda) when their firmware is not compatible with the latest models and other equipment. On some models of HDV VTRs, the shuttle speeds are terrible. The HDV online workflow is terrible enough that it would cost about the same if the footage were dubbed to HDCAM. I think Sony even recommends this workflow.

In the case of XDCAM HD, the XDCAM HD VTRs are very nice for the workflow. With the deck, ingest is very very fast in tape-style workflows since the deck (almost) instantaneously cues to the in points. Without the deck, the footage will be difficult to online as NLE vendors lagged in XDCAM support. Some online systems will likely never support it over anything other than HD-SDI.

On the other hand:
For Red, I suspect that many people will be able to ingest via the data route (more so than HDV and XDCAM HD). Also, some people may be able to workaround needing a VTR. i.e.
If Redcine does things right, it should be able to ingest an EDL and be able to output the relevant footage onto two different tapes (i.e. send altered EDLs back). This is definitely a kludge / imperfect workaround. Some productions may waste a lot of time if the offline editor incorrectly creates the tapes for ingest into online. He/she will also need a system capable of HD-SDI out and a VTR.
 
Barry_Green said:
No, what he's saying is Jim is giving us ultimate clarity in acquisition, but the masses don't seem interested; rather they're flocking to the lowest-resolution easily-accessible distribution media, being YouTube or Podcasts or cell-phone video or whatever.

It's the age-old battle of quality vs. convenience. And convenience wins every time. The immediate future of reaching a mass audience doesn't depend on how high-quality your video source is, it depends on whether you can reach the people. And the people aren't choosing to spend their money to get HD broadcasts, they're instead spending their time watching YouTube and downloading podcasts and such.

At least, I believe that's the point robroysd was trying to make.
Click to expand...

What he's talking about though is the appeal to completely different markets. Yes, Black Angus could grind down the quality of their food until they can have a dollar menu like McDonalds, but a dollar menu isn't the point of Black Angus.
 
acrochordon said:
If Sony made a video camera that only filmed in YouTube format and could send video Wi-Fi to the YouTube site, I would buy it.
Click to expand...

I would defenitely think about it. :o
 
Barry_Green said:
Right, but in those cases, again, convenience trumps quality.
Click to expand...
Barry,

I agree with everything you've said, and that's exactly my perspective too. What I was saying is that I don't think those who are "choosing YouTube" are doing so "over RED;" it's just a totally different market and they aren't really comparable. At the very least, RED ONE is an acquisition tool and YouTube is a method for distribution and playback. I'm not sure the analogy even makes sense. :)

You are right about the 1080p 4:4:4 thing. It's possible that 2K 4:4:4 RGB onboard up to 60p will be the best way for the independent user to shoot after all (the convenience factor again). It's just so tempting with 4K sitting right there - especially onboard - that you feel like you might as well just go for it all! Unforutnately, the 30p limit does create quite the barrier.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top