Sound Devices 302+Zoom H4n versus Just Sound Devices 702?

S

skimmel

Well-known member
I'm new to the audio and video thing ("old" at the still photo thing), but getting into it pretty seriously and trying to get as clean audio as possible. Am shooting video with a DSLR (Nikon D3s).

Mostly will be dialogue/voice overs, but hopefully down the road some choral work. I bought a Zoom H4n but am not particularly happy with it -- in particular, with a Rode NTG-2, I have to crank the levels up to 100 (top) to get a decent signal. Sound is OK, but there is some hiss that bugs me.

So, I was thinking of investing in either a better portable recorder (and am particularly attracted to the Sound Devices 702) versus getting a better preamp/mixer and running that either into the H4n or perhaps a slightly better recorder. If I go with an SD 302 and a Fostex FR-2LE, the cost is actually less than that for just the SD 702.

So, would like to hear from the experienced group here about the pluses and minuses of each of these choices: An SD 302 mixer into either a Zoom H4n or, say, Fostex FR-2LE versus just using an SD 702.

Thanks.
 
Skimmel,

Welcome to DVXuser and the Audio list. Audio is where the beautiful and groovy people come.....er well, cough.

I use a SD302 into my vid cams and also into a DR100 and it is like night and day. Control, limiters, clean preamps, and all the gain you could want. I can't speak for the 702, but just the 302 in front of anything is pretty good.

Grant
 
I have an H4n as well. I have not had any problems with it recording a good clean signal. Mixers are very similar in there design. The only real differences are the electronics and layout. I have a question about how you are connecting to your H4n. Are you connecting to the XLR inputs or the 1/8" mini jack on the rear of the unit? Also are you using the xlr outs of the mixer or the tape out?

If you are doing both xlr out to in from mixer to H4n then you should have the mixer set to mic out and the set the H4n to the proper level and you shoud have no problems.
 
The H4n and NTG-2 combo is well documented not to be a good match. The NTG-2 is just not a hot mic to work well in conjunction with the Zoom pre amps. So you can either buy a much more expensive recorder or get another quality mic that works great with the Zoom will last you as long if not longer than the recorder.

A lot of people dog the Zoom and it seems it all boils down to what mic is attached. I have great success with H4n / AT875R mic.

Audio has some really cool gear and is very fascinating and intellectually stimulating. But there is no need to spend money on the same gear that very large productions use. Never means you'll get the same results. Technique and choosing the appropriate gear works very well.
 
In audio, as in so many areas, you do get what you pay for. The line between cheap and inexpensive has shifted drastically over the last few years, and there are many affordable devices out there now that can get quality results. However, you do still get what you pay for and Sound Devices is a worthy investment that will hold its value over time.

As for your choices:

SD302 and H4n: A good combo, though the H4n has its flaws. The value here is in the SD302, which sends a better, stronger signal to the H4n.

SD302 and FR-2LE: A better combo. The FR-2LE is a huge step up from the H4n. It's much more suited as a baggable recorder alongside a mixer.

SD702: The 702 wipes the floor with both the H4n and the FR-2LE. It's a solid recorder that will give you amazing results.

Now, the other thing to consider here is the choice between a two-channel recorder and a 3-channel mixer/2-channel recorder combo. Having the mixer in front gives you some flexibility. If you are using just one mic, you can center that signal to record to both channels. With a recorder alone, it's patching 1:1, so there's no good way to record one mic to two channels. Plus, with a mixer, you can send signal out to both a camera and a recorder at the same time. And if you need to use a third mic, you have the ability to do that with a 3-channel mixer.

The SD302 is also a solid mixer with great per-amps, input limiting (hugely important in the field), and the aforementioned signal routing.

I'm not sure I agree with photonashville that there's no need to spend money on the better/best gear. Buy right and buy once. Buy cheap and buy twice (or three or four times). Technique is hugely important and will impact you whether recording to a $300 hand-held recorder or a $6k cart-mounted machine, but skilled technique will still sound better through better pre-amps and/or a better recorder.
 
Cedric Akins said:
I have a question about how you are connecting to your H4n. Are you connecting to the XLR inputs or the 1/8" mini jack on the rear of the unit? Also are you using the xlr outs of the mixer or the tape out?

If you are doing both xlr out to in from mixer to H4n then you should have the mixer set to mic out and the set the H4n to the proper level and you shoud have no problems.
Click to expand...

I connect the mic to H4n via XLR. Don't have a mixer yet, but one advantage of a different digital recorder is that I believe I can run xlr out to xlr in at line level.
 
ggrantly said:
Skimmel,

Welcome to DVXuser and the Audio list. Audio is where the beautiful and groovy people come.....er well, cough.

I use a SD302 into my vid cams and also into a DR100 and it is like night and day. Control, limiters, clean preamps, and all the gain you could want. I can't speak for the 702, but just the 302 in front of anything is pretty good.

Grant
Click to expand...

Thanks for the welcome and the advice.
 
photonashville said:
The H4n and NTG-2 combo is well documented not to be a good match. The NTG-2 is just not a hot mic to work well in conjunction with the Zoom pre amps. So you can either buy a much more expensive recorder or get another quality mic that works great with the Zoom will last you as long if not longer than the recorder.

A lot of people dog the Zoom and it seems it all boils down to what mic is attached. I have great success with H4n / AT875R mic.

Audio has some really cool gear and is very fascinating and intellectually stimulating. But there is no need to spend money on the same gear that very large productions use. Never means you'll get the same results. Technique and choosing the appropriate gear works very well.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. I've been doing a lot of reading on audio and this is clearly the mantra! It would be nice to have a setup that is less mic-dependent, but I definitely don't want to fall into the trap of spending lots of money just because it's what the industry uses.
 
C2V said:
As for your choices:

SD302 and H4n: A good combo, though the H4n has its flaws. The value here is in the SD302, which sends a better, stronger signal to the H4n.

SD302 and FR-2LE: A better combo. The FR-2LE is a huge step up from the H4n. It's much more suited as a baggable recorder alongside a mixer.

SD702: The 702 wipes the floor with both the H4n and the FR-2LE. It's a solid recorder that will give you amazing results.
Click to expand...

Thanks C2V! How would the SD302+FR-2LE compare with just the SD702 -- both sound-wise and also in use?

C2V said:
I'm not sure I agree with photonashville that there's no need to spend money on the better/best gear. Buy right and buy once. Buy cheap and buy twice (or three or four times). Technique is hugely important and will impact you whether recording to a $300 hand-held recorder or a $6k cart-mounted machine, but skilled technique will still sound better through better pre-amps and/or a better recorder.
Click to expand...

Yes, I do worry about buying cheap and buying twice. I've certainly done this in my photo career and it never works!
 
I've heard that the H4n does not support line level recoding via XLR, only 1/4 inch jack.
Can someone confirm?
 
skimmel said:
Makes sense. I've been doing a lot of reading on audio and this is clearly the mantra! It would be nice to have a setup that is less mic-dependent, but I definitely don't want to fall into the trap of spending lots of money just because it's what the industry uses.
Click to expand...

Then risk falling in to the trap of buying several pieces of equipment to do the same job to get those pro results. For instance I have purchased 2 different mixers, one because it was "inexpensive" Rolls MX422, the other was a the "minimum base pro" mixer, the Shure FP33. The difference between the two are night and day. The pre amps on the Rolls were noisey, it had a louder self noise and the layout was not really well thought out. The Shure mixer out performed the rolls hands down, quiet pre apms, clean user friendly layout, accurate metering, there was truely not real comparison other than they were mixers because the quality set them so far apart.

The same can be said for other professional audio equipment, wireless systems, lavalier mics, shotgun mics, hypercardiod mics except for the Oktava great mic for the price, :D, as well as recorders and even cables, i.e. Canare, Star Quad, Mogami.

My point is if you are going in to sound mixing as your profession buy the "best" equipment you can afford. That does not mean buy the most expensive but the highest quality product in your price range. Don't be afraid to look for used pro gear the prices can be more reasonble than you think and the quality for the most part can still be as good as a new item.


J Davis said:
I've heard that the H4n does not support line level recoding via XLR, only 1/4 inch jack.
Can someone confirm?
Click to expand...

That is correct. You will need to purchase in-line pads around -30db or -40db.
 
C2V said:
Having the mixer in front gives you some flexibility. If you are using just one mic, you can center that signal to record to both channels. With a recorder alone, it's patching 1:1, so there's no good way to record one mic to two channels.
Click to expand...

A follow-up question on this one: Can the 702 not record a single mic input onto both channels? The Zoom H4n can.
 
You'll have more flexibilities with the 302/H4n combo than a 702 alone.

If you're worried about overloading the H4n's inputs, you could use the TA3 stereo mix out and send that to the H4n. Or, use inline pads in front of the H4n.
 
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skimmel said:
A follow-up question on this one: Can the 702 not record a single mic input onto both channels? The Zoom H4n can.
Click to expand...

skimmel,

You can record a single mic into one or both channels by going into the Menu and selecting which track(s) you want to record onto.
 
I have the 302 and mainly feed it into camera (hvx200 or hpx500) and it makes all the difference in the world. I also have the 702 and I love that as well, but it is no replacement for a 302. You don't get faders on a 702, only input gain knobs. It is not ideal for mixing. Before I had the 702 I used to feed my H4 with the 302 and it even made that POS sound decent. (the original H4 was terrible to operate, but could make decent recordings if you bypassed the preamps and I know the H4N is night and day better.

Get a 302!! You will never look back!
 
skimmel said:
A follow-up question on this one: Can the 702 not record a single mic input onto both channels? The Zoom H4n can.
Click to expand...

Question is, why would you want to? Dialog is normally recorded in mono since a person speaking is a single source. There's no need to record it to two tracks on location even if the final production is ultimately going to have a stereo soundtrack. Recording to only one track gives you smaller files sizes, hence more can fit on a card. Record the one mic onto a single mono track, then pan it into the centre position equally between left and right in the editor in post for the final mix.
 
Pardon me for bumping a two month old thread but given the choice which of these two combos would you choose?


Combo 1:
SD 302 mixer
Zoom H4n

or

Combo 2:

SD Mixpre
Foxtex FR-2 LE recorder





Any insight appreciated.
 
I prefer the sound of the FR2LE to the SD recorders, but the coloration of the sound is taste. Lots of ppl like SD. To my ear, the Fostex has a surprisingly musical sound. Of course, mic-preamp pairing is a seldom mentioned but very important component, so auditioning your Rode mics is key. I also happen to like the Grace Lunatec V3, which is more money. Preamp wise, the RME quadmic for $450 is a rock solid 4 channel preamp with true -129.5 ein dBa that sounds better, again, to my ear, than almost anything out there under $1000. Compact, rugged, and 100 percent hum free owing to the unique, cycle independent design. Hum can truly ruin a gig, and I often use hum-free designs on location. The RME also takes any power source, so you can use any walwart that is just in the wall somewhere, AC or DC, and plug it in and it works perfect, in the off chance that the PS fails, or the battery croaks, or whatever. . I'm going to give the Tascam 680 a test drive at the AES coming up, it has a mixer, a recorder and preamps all in one box. The new Mackies look very promising. Remember, 4 channels is way, way better than two.
Despite what you may read, not all mixers are the same. Fundamentally, there are analog and digital mixers which sound different, and use effects differently. On top of that, there are bus design choices which affect the sound. An analog mixer that uses a true summing bus design is a rare item, and has a special sound. It is different from digital, and different from the off-the-shelf analog mixers. Most ppl now use digital mixers so they can layer on the digital effects, and also carefully compensate from timing issues among all the mics. Also, if you are running say, 36 mics on an orchestra, adjusting the timing alone is a big job. Nonetheless, a true summing bus analog mixer has a special sound.
Although digital mixers kinda should sound the same, they don't. Go figure.
I would also recommend that you get a couple more mics and run 4 channels. And here, the Edirol 4 ch is a good choice, although the Tascam gives you more channels for the money. It remains to be seen if the sound of the Tascam can compete with the Edirol but initial reports are good. You can also hack a Zoom H2 into a four channel, but then you will be relying on you soldering skills :)
 
I was considering a setup like this before I finally ended up with the Marantz PMD661.

The preamps are cleaner and more powerful than the Zoom H4n. I don't think anything else being discussed has preamps that are quite as nice as Sound Devices, but the Marantz PMD661 preamps are really very good. It also has a dual mono recording mode, where it records a single input on the left, and the same input -20dB down on the right, as insurance against clipping.

Finally, the PMD661 also has true line level inputs, so you don't need to mess around with pads or running line level signals through mic preamps. If you haven't considered the PMD661, I'd encourage you to consider it.
 
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