Sony XDCAM EX

mikkowilson said:
Erm, either 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 .. I can't recall exactly, but mathematically they are identical anway.
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They may have the same ratio of chroma samples to luminance (25%) per frame, but they are far from identical in performance terms, which is why NTSC DV (4:1:1) performs very differently to PAL DV (4:2:0).

4:1:1 makes some sense in the interlace world, and it was initially implemented when digital recorders were just that - and interconnected by analogue links - it stood up better to multiple A-D/D-A conversions. Come the all digital world and 4:2:0 was found better in the main - especially when DVDs came along, whose spec was 4:2:0. It's the same principle with 4:2:2 - with interlace there is a lot to be said for having as many chroma samples vertically as horizontally.

None of that is true with progressive systems, and with 25% as many chroma samples as luminance it makes obvious sense to distribute them 50% horizontally and 50% vertically (ie 4:2:0). Colour space of 4:1:1 in progressive scan would mean a 100% distribution vertically and only 25% horizontally - totally pointless in a progressive world.

{EDIT} Yes, the EX has 1/2" chips, but what I find as significant is that the lens has proper manual control. In a camera of this class, I find that more important than the interchangeable aspect, especially as it seems to be the widest fixed lens, bettering both the HVX (just) and the Z1.
 
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Not sure if this was already posted but here is a 30min vid from sony about the XDCAM EX...

mms://sony.wmsvc.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/EXlogo.wmv
 
TimurCivan said:
No way.... i believe AVCintra will never make it to anything less than the HPX2000. Thats like sony providing HDcamSR to the EX1. its just not gonna happen. if it does, i will eat my shoe on film and post it here, ala Herzog.
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I'd imagine one's shoe can get rather dirty in NYC. Very dirty. :)

AVC Intra is just a codec. A codec that doesn't push the bitrates beyond the basic hardware specs of the current HVX--50 or 100 Mbps. AVC Intra is the successor to DVCPro HD, no? Significantly better quality and 10 bits at DVCPro HD *equivalent* bitrates. 4:2:2 like DVCPro HD. Why the hell wouldn't Panasonic put AVC Intra on the HVX300 (or whatever they call it)?

What? Because it happens to be an optional board for the HPX2000 at the moment? You think an AVC-Intra HVX300 with a fixed lens and 1/3" chips is going to eat into sales of the HPX2000 or it's successor? I don't see that as being an issue. Obviously, the HVX200a won't have AVC-Intra, but if Panny wants to stay in the game, it'll be on the HVX300. There's nothing about AVC-Intra that would add any significant costs for a new $5K camera. The boards will be new anyway and it would just be artificially crippling the camera and *limiting* the spread of AVC Intra Codec.

I don't think your HDCAM SR analogy holds up. The EX1 is a 35 Mbps camera and HDCAM SR data rate is 440 Mbps (600 Mbps for video+audio)--and 4:4:4 capable. The data rates for AVC Intra and DVCPro HD are equivalent and both are 4:2:2 codecs.
 
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Haha,

I agree and i would love it if they did, but i dont think were going to see AVC intra for a while on the Prosumer level.

SurrealSolutions said:
Not sure if this was already posted but here is a 30min vid from sony about the XDCAM EX...

mms://sony.wmsvc.vitalstreamcdn.com/sony_vitalstream_com/EXlogo.wmv
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Informative....

I wonder how the 50mbps, 1920x1080 XDCAM 422HD will hold up. Thats alot of Data at 50mbps.... Thats like Digibeta bandwidth..... I mean, DVCproHD is Subsampled to 1280x1080 and is still more compressed than DV at 100mbps.

Anyone have a F350 XDcam? Can you get a stroble light at night, throw up some lights on some buhses, and set off the strobe once while panning, i wanna see how the 35mbps holds up under that situation. Then repeat it with two pulses at 1/10th of a second interval, i wanna see if the codec offers enough bandwidth to hold two strobe lights within the same GOP.

I know someone is gonna say, what a random situation... But no, i shoot music videos and concerts, live stage shows live off stoblelights and constant movement in the frame with high shutterspeeds. Imagine a crowd shot, in colred light, with strobes, spots, and a full frame of movement. i want ot know that the whole image isnt going to go legos on me.

if it will hold up, i will seriously consider using the EX.
 
The thing is, AVC intra should be a fantastic codec, but nowadays high end prices are not that justifiable anymore for such codecs.

Convergent Design is coming out with an HD-SDI capture box with a 160mbs 4:2:2 mpeg2 intraframe (god I hate this intraframe and interframe nomenclatures... I always mix them up). Quality, while not 4:4:4, should be very high, and the avcintra advantage should be less evident. Also, just look at RED ONE's recording: 4k 25p on a CF card recording RAW at 4:4:4.

Before, the premium price tag of high end professional gear was part attributed to the very expensive tape mechanisms of the cameras.

Red one and Convergent design are proving that top quality production doesn't require these expensive tape drives.

CF cards are starting to be a big part in the post RED production revolution. Lets see how the big traditional manufacturers respond...
 
XDCAM EX has to be the most confusing product launch of all time. Sony needs to step up quick before we really just start making up stuff the cam can do.
 
I think in the next few years we will see....

Pocket Pro Red Cam with zoom 'repackaged' DSLR 35mm lens - shooting 4k complete package @ MSRP $10,999

Prosumer Mini Red Cam with fixed ENG lens with 1/2" censor - Shooting 2k at MSRP $ 5499


Red Consumer Cam Shooting 1k, supply your own DSLR lens MSRP $2499

From Jim Jannard's record with Oakley, he is not the type that will just rest and be satisfied with the RED One and the Pocket Pro Red.

I think it will take 1 1/2 - 2 years for the RED One to be fully stabilized and be at 100%. After the growing pains, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, JVC better watch out for Jim. At the end, it is us, the consumer that is going to benefit.
 
Hard to predict Red's roadmap, but they're a force to be reckoned with. You can bet everyone from Panny to Panavision is worried about Jim Jannard eating their lunch. If not, they should be.
 
Does anyone think the use of the express slot media will see Panasonic consider steering away from P2 in the future? Considering the increased transfer rate amongst other things?
 
What increased transfer rate? You mean from 640mbps to 800mbps? Hardly a factor. Panasonic could make P2 faster than SxS if they wanted to, if they RAIDED six or 8 SD cards together instead of four.

Yes the ExpressCard bus is potentially capable of twice the speed of the PCMCIA bus, but then again the PCMCIA bus is capable of more speed than any ExpressCard SSD in existence. :)

P2's not going anywhere, it's thoroughly entrenched in the broadcast world. But what I hope Panasonic does is introduce a P3 card based on the ExpressCard, that would plug into a P2 adapter. That way you could have both: compatibility with the existing infrastructure, and also benefit from the smaller size of the ExpressCard form factor.
 
Barry_Green said:
What increased transfer rate? You mean from 640mbps to 800mbps? Hardly a factor. Panasonic could make P2 faster than SxS if they wanted to, if they RAIDED six or 8 SD cards together instead of four.

Yes the ExpressCard bus is potentially capable of twice the speed of the PCMCIA bus, but then again the PCMCIA bus is capable of more speed than any ExpressCard SSD in existence. :)

P2's not going anywhere, it's thoroughly entrenched in the broadcast world. But what I hope Panasonic does is introduce a P3 card based on the ExpressCard, that would plug into a P2 adapter. That way you could have both: compatibility with the existing infrastructure, and also benefit from the smaller size of the ExpressCard form factor.
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errrrrrr you Barry Green! You act like you right books for Panasonic cameras or something. That had to be the greatest thing they could ever do. Such a simple concept but obviously a winner! 10 playa points Barry! Let's just act like that was my idea. :)
 
Barry has been pushing that P3 idea for ages. I remeber discussing it with him at NAB, and it was an old idea then.

- Mikko
 
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Well, it's a damn good idea. That Sony promotional piece is pretty awful (those flying text effects made me want to scream), and they were very misleading about the way they contrasted SxS and P2. The technical differences are pretty much inconsequential, it's more of a convenience issue. Most new laptops only have ExpressCard slots, so they need an adapter for P2--that's it. I like the P3 idea, but I can see how Panny would see that as making the card less robust (more connectors, complexity) and more expensive.
 
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