FS7: Sony in a C300III World

[Run&Gun]

Oh sh*t, I was looking for something like this to combine my Steadicam Pilot with my Ronin SC... not trying to derail the thread - but please report back how "playtime" went...

If you have a Pilot, all you'd have to buy is the Steadimate-S for $295(+$25 rebate). Unfortunately, the Steadimate-S does not work with the SC. Just the Ronin S and Crane 2. The collar for the mechanical (Steadicam) gimbal isn't compatible with the smaller SC. And to add insult to injury, B&H just had the Ronin-S on-sale a few days ago for $499(!). So you could have had a set-up for only like $20 more than the Ronin-S by itself.

Yeah, I get that. It's just I can do things on gimbal I can't otherwise do, though i wouldn't call myself a steadicam op. These days I find myself building both a gimbal and a tripod rig and alternating between them all day. Or, less often, being handheld all day.

Let me know how the steadimate treats you! Bobbing my Z axis is one of the gimbal problems I have and basically I can't make it work for macro type shots and still need a slider then.

So, I've had a little while to play with it today and oh man, am I horrible. Lol. It's been about three or four years since I've tried to fly a rig.

What you get for the money is pretty amazing. With the recent price drop at B&H and the mail-in rebate, it nets out to under $900 and for that you get a vest, mechanical gimbal that attaches to the electronic gimbal and an arm. And what really surprised me is the arm with its lift adjustment knobs on each arm section and adjustments on the socket and socket block that bigger arms and vests have. The vest is a little fiddley compared to the heavier duty one's, but it's completely serviceable for this type of lightweight use. One issue I ran into, though: The collar that the gimbal attaches to the Ronin with slips once it's put under load and in-turn hits/interferes with the Ronin pan axis. It's not supposed to, but at least with mine, it's not able to stay in place. I had to do a modification: it comes with two rubber inserts to use it with the Crane 2 and I had to cut pieces pieces off of those rubber inserts and super glue them to the existing pads in the collar to make it tight enough and give it enough friction to stay in place. Gonna call Tiffen. I shouldn't have had to do that.

Now I've gotta get my skills up to speed and find a good place to mount a monitor. I have a 5" Focus on a small Noga arm attached to one of the weight rods, but it's kind of in a bad location. My hand on the gimbal handle obstructs it, a lot. It needs to be lower like on a real sled.


*corrected some wrong info*

 

[ahalpert]

Sounds like aside from being fiddley, it does what it's supposed to?

Any idea how long it would take to set it up with the same rig you had on it the last time?

Any idea how long it takes to come off and back on the arm during a shoot?

Is it easy to get to high and low angles?

Thanks!

 

[Run&Gun]

Sounds like aside from being fiddley, it does what it's supposed to?

Any idea how long it would take to set it up with the same rig you had on it the last time?

Any idea how long it takes to come off and back on the arm during a shoot?

Is it easy to get to high and low angles?

Thanks!

Setting up from dead scratch out of the box took a long time(actually longer than it should have), partly getting the vest fitted, but that’s more or less a one time thing, and then attaching the collar & gimbal to the Ronin S, because of the aforementioned issues and having to modify it myself. Moving forward, if you decided to leave it in a “almost ready to shoot state”, then set-up time would be pretty minimal: you’d just have to go through balancing your camera on the Ronin as usual, then balancing the “sled” that the Ronin has essentially become. You can return the Ronin to it’s normal state(almost) in minimal time, as well. The Steadicam gimbal/yoke is attached to the collar by two thumbscrews, so that’s comes back off quickly and you can the just remove the counterbalance weights and you’re back to a hand-holdable state.
Attaching the arm to the gimbal yoke is just like a regular Steadicam. It only takes a few seconds to attach/detach.

They advertise quickly being able to go from high-mode to low-mode(basically flipping it upside down), but because you set the “rig” up bottom heavy, when you flip it, then you’re having to hold it in place to keep it from flipping back. Not the end of the world since we’re talking such a light weight package, but you wouldn’t want to operate like that all day.

You can tell that it’s designed to utilize the Ronin’s abilities(like motorized tilt, and pan-to a degree)instead of how a “real” Steadicam would operate. One of the major differences is your grip is the complete and total opposite of normal Steadicam operating, where you’re touching the post as lightly as possible. With this, you are gripping it full-on.

Like every thing else in life, there are trade-offs and compromises and this is no different. You are going to be limited in some of the things you can do vs. being strictly handheld with a gimbal, but if you do a lot of long takes/walk ‘n talk/follow type stuff with an electronic gimbal, this would be a lifesaver for you.

 

[morgan_moore]

Why are you going for bottom heavy and gripping the post?

Surely bottom heavy makes it easier for a good horizon on a regular steadicam (but here we have electic horizon) and a hard grip will transfer wobble from the human?

#needanewthread

 

[Run&Gun]

Why are you going for bottom heavy and gripping the post?

Surely bottom heavy makes it easier for a good horizon on a regular steadicam (but here we have electic horizon) and a hard grip will transfer wobble from the human?

#needanewthread

Remember, it’s an electronic gimbal, not a real sled. Minus the Steadicam Volt, you do normally want the sled a little bottom heavy, but too much and it makes it very easy to get the pendulum effect when you’re moving around. I did reduce the counterweights from what they recommend on the initial set-up and it’s better, now. The “electronic horizon” is a big part of why you have to have a heavier grip, because of the electronic gimbal constantly correcting(especially for the horizon) it makes the “sled” move around(they actually point this out and show you in one of the set-up videos). Just imagine if you had a real sled and the camera on top was constantly, even if almost imperceptibly, rolling, pitching and turning independently, but still attached to the top of the sled. And of course once it starts moving, it’s going to have to move more to make those corrections, introducing even more movement, wash, rinse, repeat. I actually played around with it with the Ronin in FPV mode(no horizon correction) and it started to feel a little more like an actual Steadicam. But of course, then you have to really concentrate on your horizon again, unless you’re doing some move that you don’t want a level horizon. Lotsa options...

It kind of amazes me the capability of the toys we have today and how “little” money they cost.

 

[Guest]

Now I'm the one who's confused - how are you using an EVF on a gimbal? (Though I've looked into head-mounted EVFs that I could use with a gimbal, which would be awesome. I've seen some do it.) I love sticking my eye in there too, although I'm not often positioned to do it and I don't own an independent EVF either.

Sorry, I guess I only implied this, but I rarely enjoy using gimbals. I like to be connected to the camera. Tripod, handheld, and steadicam. However, I recognize that gimbals are powerful tools.

I like the EVF immersion. However, I cannot use the EVF on a gimbal. That is just an additional reason I prefer handheld or tripod. A head mounted EVF sounds like motion sickness.

To answer your question, I do not use EVF with gimbal.

 

[ahalpert]

I totally get that re:gimbal-aversion. I like EVF immersion and I think it's the best way to compose images (when there isn't info overlaid).

I know that a trained steadicam op can accomplish more nuanced and organic moves than I can on a gimbal. And with the gimbal, you have to fight a robotic feeling, although it's doable with the right settings and operation.

I just like the gimbal because it's so easy, cheap and lightweight. I had a steadicam Merlin years ago (not a real steadicam obviously). It was a PITA to set up, and I was never fully satisfied with my results. For the same price, I have a Ronin-s. It's a quick set-up and always keeps my horizon level.

Sometimes I just use it like a monopod, but I can move around more quickly and with no footprint plus guaranteed stability, although you lose the control of a fluid head. I also like to stick it on a light stand to get high angles. It lets me get smooth shots I don't think I could get with a steadicam or even a larger Ronin.



Of course, I'd rather be riding a camera crane and looking through the optical view finder of a film camera for that shot, but it wasn't in the budget .

Also, clients know the "Ronin" and even the Ronin-S is marketable (albeit less than a full Ronin). Most of the gimbal stuff I do is like this simple expo for Christie's that probably wouldn't be much different on a steadicam:

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Of course, I shoot plenty on a tripod/HH/slider as well. Horses for courses. I'm not a gimbal supremacist.

 

[Guest]

That is spot on.

Gimbals will likely continue to get better and better to the point they feel connected to the operator’s movements. Gokbals are just too good to not itilize even during this transitional growing pains stage. Even as they are they allow us to do things we could never do before.

 

[laverdir]

That is spot on.

Gimbals will likely continue to get better and better to the point they feel connected to the operator’s movements. Gokbals are just too good to not itilize even during this transitional growing pains stage. Even as they are they allow us to do things we could never do before.

Hybrids are way to go.

I really like my Steadicam Volt.

 

[Guest]

Hybrids are way to go.

I really like my Steadicam Volt.

I got to put on the Trinity twice. Has a great feel.

The Volt is amazing. And for me, it is the most natural transition. I don’t tend to shoot in ways that i don’t naturally move, so floor to ceiling moves are a pretty rare choice for me.

But goodness, the Trinity is cool rig. The Tiffen Steadicam/DJI Ronin S combo Sort of operates similarly maybe once the Komodo is out in the wild, there will be an incredible tool in that setup.

You use hybrids much?

 

[ahalpert]

Not sure who the "you" is there - if it's me, I haven't used the hybrid. Of course, I know of the Trinity.

This is the first I've heard of the Volt - is it the smartphone gimbal? Looks a lot like my old Merlin. That design makes sense. I remember reading a few years back that steadicam ops were considering putting 1-axis gimbals from Letus on top of their steadicam just to stabilize their horizon while leaving the rest of the movement to them.

By tiffen/Ronin-S do you mean the Steadimate-S? (I know you can rig the ronin-s up to whatever arm/vest you have, too.) The issue I see with that is that all your pan/tilt moves are still mediated by the Ronin, so I'm not convinced you can make the footage more organic. Maybe you can turn off pan-axis motors, not sure. I don't think turning off the tilt would help you, though, because the camera would stay level while you tilted the handle. I assume that the Trinity has more complex modes of operation and can transfer more pan/tilt control to the user's hands/fingers.

The reasons to get the Steadimate IMO are to transfer the weight to your body and to steady your z-axis bounce. I could use the z-axis steadying (although I get by with the ninja walk), but the weight of my rig is manageable even for a long shoot day. I just have to be careful to keep my wrist straight and not overuse the locking trigger because either way I strain myself over time.

Floor-to-ceiling moves are probably rare, depending on what you're shooting. But don't knock a vertical gimbal move! I shoot them and it looks just like a jib move. Very handy for doing a reveal past a foreground object. Or I was shooting a doc a few months ago and they wanted b-roll of some AIDS quilts hanging from the balcony in a church. Putting the Ronin-S on a light stand let me get footage from the level of the quilts, and also to move upward into that position or keep going and float past them by lowering/raising the stand with my arms. I actually had a fair bit of vertical movement available that way. Doing the same thing with a fluid head instead of a gimbal would have been completely unusable because there was plenty of wavering in my light stand.

 

[ahalpert]

Oh, and Komodo - that would be awesome on a gimbal. I don't think it will make sense for me a business move, though. I don't think corporate/eng/doc clients would be drawn to it (maybe doc?) And I don't think narrative/MV jobs would be either (maybe if they were gimbal heavy?) If it were $2-3k, I could justify it for the sake of improving my footage. (But even then, it's nice for a gimbal cam to have continuous AF and IBIS.) For me, I think the money is in pairing a Sony or Canon ENG camera with a mirrorless. Komodo makes great sense as a B cam for your Helium or as an A cam for an indy producer buying their own camera IMO.

 

[Run&Gun]

Hybrids are way to go.

I really like my Steadicam Volt.

I got to put on the Trinity twice. Has a great feel.

The Volt is amazing. And for me, it is the most natural transition. I don’t tend to shoot in ways that i don’t naturally move, so floor to ceiling moves are a pretty rare choice for me.

But goodness, the Trinity is cool rig. The Tiffen Steadicam/DJI Ronin S combo Sort of operates similarly maybe once the Komodo is out in the wild, there will be an incredible tool in that setup.

You use hybrids much?

May get to use the Volt soon. I text one of my buddies that is a Steadicam op and instructor about a week ago to see if this would be a good time to get some practice in. He said sure, as soon as he gets the rest of the stuff in from Tiffen. I didn’t know he had sold his Ultra 2 and switched to the M2. He already had a Volt on his Ultra, but the last time I flew it was before he had the Volt.

 

[Run&Gun]

Not sure who the "you" is there - if it's me, I haven't used the hybrid. Of course, I know of the Trinity.

This is the first I've heard of the Volt - is it the smartphone gimbal? Looks a lot like my old Merlin. That design makes sense. I remember reading a few years back that steadicam ops were considering putting 1-axis gimbals from Letus on top of their steadicam just to stabilize their horizon while leaving the rest of the movement to them.

By tiffen/Ronin-S do you mean the Steadimate-S? (I know you can rig the ronin-s up to whatever arm/vest you have, too.) The issue I see with that is that all your pan/tilt moves are still mediated by the Ronin, so I'm not convinced you can make the footage more organic. Maybe you can turn off pan-axis motors, not sure. I don't think turning off the tilt would help you, though, because the camera would stay level while you tilted the handle. I assume that the Trinity has more complex modes of operation and can transfer more pan/tilt control to the user's hands/fingers.

The reasons to get the Steadimate IMO are to transfer the weight to your body and to steady your z-axis bounce. I could use the z-axis steadying (although I get by with the ninja walk), but the weight of my rig is manageable even for a long shoot day. I just have to be careful to keep my wrist straight and not overuse the locking trigger because either way I strain myself over time.

Floor-to-ceiling moves are probably rare, depending on what you're shooting. But don't knock a vertical gimbal move! I shoot them and it looks just like a jib move. Very handy for doing a reveal past a foreground object. Or I was shooting a doc a few months ago and they wanted b-roll of some AIDS quilts hanging from the balcony in a church. Putting the Ronin-S on a light stand let me get footage from the level of the quilts, and also to move upward into that position or keep going and float past them by lowering/raising the stand with my arms. I actually had a fair bit of vertical movement available that way. Doing the same thing with a fluid head instead of a gimbal would have been completely unusable because there was plenty of wavering in my light stand.

Granted I still need LOTS of practice, because I’m not good with a gimbal, either, but I’m trying to make the Ronin S behave as close to a sled as possible, so I put it in Sport Mode, which minimizes the amount of lag between movement from the operator and reaction from the gimbal. I’ve also been experimenting with FPV Mode combined with Sport Mode, which removes roll compensation/horizon leveling. I do wish there was a way to “hard lock” the pan axis on the Ronin S like on the big Ronin 2, without it fighting you. But one thing on panning, the Steadimate gimbal does not pan as freely as a normal Steadicam gimbal. There is a decent amount of friction/resistance there when it’s under load.

So far, for me, the biggest thing the Steadimate/arm/vest is doing is just taking the weight of of your arms. But it’s doing it well. You can carry it around forever, but you’re not gonna get some of the crazy shots that you can get just hand holding it.

 

[ahalpert]

Oh wow I was totally looking at the wrong volt. Yes the steadicam volt is the horizon leveler people were talking about a few years back and it's come to life. Brilliant.

I typically use the Ronin-S in the opposite way, only employing Sport mode for fast pans. My default setting is low acceleration and a relatively high deadband so I can pan gradually rotating the handle or using the joystick. But now I'm interested in trying it your way, except I don't have a steadimate.

 

[Run&Gun]

Oh wow I was totally looking at the wrong volt. Yes the steadicam volt is the horizon leveler people were talking about a few years back and it's come to life. Brilliant.

I typically use the Ronin-S in the opposite way, only employing Sport mode for fast pans. My default setting is low acceleration and a relatively high deadband so I can pan gradually rotating the handle or using the joystick. But now I'm interested in trying it your way, except I don't have a steadimate.

Even though I grew up playing video games, and still play now, I do not like operating that way. I'm just so used to being in direct control, either with the camera on my shoulder/in my hand or on a tripod. I'm just so much more comfortable with my eye in the VF and my hand on the camera. I mean I'm trying to learn and adapt, but you know what they say about old dogs... Lol And something else that has crossed my mind, as we get older our reaction time/reflexes slow and so many monitors now have perceptible lag, couple that with removing the direct physical connection to the camera and there's a lot of disconnect.

 

[ahalpert]

I think a lot of my gimbal moves are pretty much prefigured dolly moves, so I know what I'm going to do in advance. Of course, you still need to adjust your framing in the monitor and keep the image composed. And yes, when I'm tracking pesky humans, I have to be more on my toes because they might make a quick move or the groom could dip the bride, etc. Of course, you can quickly activate Sports mode by pushing the M button. Sometimes I build that into the middle of my shot when I need to do a quick pan to reframe and my normal settings are way too slow.

Operating a gimbal is DEFINITELY not the most naturalistic.

 

[Guest]

Even though I grew up playing video games, and still play now, I do not like operating that way. I'm just so used to being in direct control, either with the camera on my shoulder/in my hand or on a tripod. I'm just so much more comfortable with my eye in the VF and my hand on the camera. I mean I'm trying to learn and adapt, but you know what they say about old dogs... Lol And something else that has crossed my mind, as we get older our reaction time/reflexes slow and so many monitors now have perceptible lag, couple that with removing the direct physical connection to the camera and there's a lot of disconnect.

Agreed. Tech is opening up possibilities that are exciting, but best if we don’t forget the obvious benefits of having a connection to the tools we use.