FS7: Sony in a C300III World

Joshua Milligan

Joshua Milligan

Well-known member
Canon dropped the hammer today. The C500II was already a spectacular camera and the 1DXIII is an outstanding hybrid for the money. Now with today's announcement of the incredible C300III and full unveiling of the EOS R5 specs, where does that leave Sony, the FX9, FX6 and mirrorless line?

Sony's FX9 is great, but let's be honest, it's not a massive upgrade from the FS7/FS7II. It is full frame and it does have dual base ISOs, a great AF system, the incredible electronic variable ND, a new (and greatly improved) color science, a body that works great for shoulder mounted work and comes with improvements over the previous generation such as the much better LCD screen. However, the frame rates, resolutions, codec, etc. haven't changed a bit since the FS7 was first announced in 2014. Canon on the other hand has included monumental improvements in their cameras and they now way exceed anything Sony is offering.

No, today's announced C300III is not full frame, but it does offer some incredible feats. Images that are recorded at two exposures (Dual Gain Output), 4K up to 120p, internal raw recording (CRL), and an electronic image stabilization system that doesn't require a program to use are great additions. They did this all for the same price as the FX9. You can't help but feel that these are things that should've been included in Sony's FS7 replacement.

Even more interestingly, the new EOS R5 absolutely smokes anything Sony is offering. It looks like the 8K wasn't a gimmick after all since it records it at full frame (no crop) in either raw internal or 10-bit 4:2:2 internal. The 4K in this little camera also goes to 120p and it finally gets IBIS for the first time in Canon history. We don't know the record limits yet, but you can't help but notice how big this is going to be. Sony on the other hand hasn't changed their mirrorless codec in 5 years. We are still recording to the same 8-bit 4:2:0 100mbps codec at 4K 30p that first came out in the A7RII in 2015. We don't even have 10-bit out. The HD still hasn't topped 120p and most of their mirrorless cameras have horrible HD which means horrible high frame rate options. The A9, their flagship mirrorless camera, does't even have picture profiles.

I love Sony and have so much money tied up in their gear. I currently have an FS7II, an A7RIII and an A7III along with a ton of their glass and even their wireless mic systems. But, I can't help but notice how far they are falling. The manual focus on their glass is still awful (except for their cine hybrid glass), their cameras are way underwhelming in specs and they don't seem to be heading forward with anything monumental. No, specs aren't everything, but come on. Let's see some bigger improvements here.

It's telling that Sony rescheduled today's product announcement of what was thought to be the new FX6 until April 30th. I guess they found out what Canon was about to offer. I just can't see Sony coming out with an FS5 replacement that can compete with the C200 (now priced at $5,500 as of today). I also can't see them coming out with an A7SIII that will compete with the EOS R5 without somehow changing or crippling the FX9. I still want an FX9 and feel it would be a great camera to own, but man, Sony feels more complacent today than Canon did the last five years. I can only hope this isn't a sign of things to come.
 
Sony will have its day again. These Japanese companies take turns.

Canon is doing really well right now, but all of their new great products cost some money...$6500, $11K, $16K. It's not like they are dropping an a7III in 2018 for $2K. (The EOS R is underwhelming.)

I think the a7SIII will be an amazing camera for most likely half the price of the R5.
 
To me Sony win on affordable RnG lenses.

Canon lenses seem to be terrible 17-85 5.6 (£200)
Or great if you have £15k
 
NorBro said:
Sony will have its day again. These Japanese companies take turns...
Click to expand...
And, as pointed by the OP, one camera has features at a given price point that the other doesn't. How do they figure that?

PS. Sony's presser is on the 30th. Their answer is the AF cine zooms. Take that, EF-mount.
 
AF cine zooms are cool but most don't care.

We badly need 4K/60p in a Sony mirrorless camera. Then 10-bit and usable IBIS.

For some, the order may be different but the formula is simple; stick to the main features hundreds-of-thousands want and keep the price low.
 
Well, I don't know about the suggestion that Sony is at a standstill. They just introduced an entirely new camera within the last year. I do know that Canon introducing a new camera at this time, during the pandemic, when the industry is at a virtual standstill, is really poor timing. Or let's say "unfortunate" timing.

I can't imagine that many businesses that have seen their revenue drop by 80% and are having to lay off employees are shopping for new gear right now. Most owner/ops have zero income at present.

If there is a time to be in between new releases, this is it. If there is a time to NOT be releasing a new camera, this is it.

The last thing on my mind right now is buying a new camera. My interest level, at this time, in the C300Mkiii is next to nil. I don't even know when I'll have work again.
 
That dual gain is interesting. Glad someone other than Arri finally did it.
 
JPNola said:
Well, I don't know about the suggestion that Sony is at a standstill. They just introduced an entirely new camera within the last year. I do know that Canon introducing a new camera at this time, during the pandemic, when the industry is at a virtual standstill, is really poor timing. Or let's say "unfortunate" timing.

I can't imagine that many businesses that have seen their revenue drop by 80% and are having to lay off employees are shopping for new gear right now. Most owner/ops have zero income at present.

If there is a time to be in between new releases, this is it. If there is a time to NOT be releasing a new camera, this is it.

The last thing on my mind right now is buying a new camera. My interest level, at this time, in the C300Mkiii is next to nil. I don't even know when I'll have work again.
Click to expand...
At least they could have given more time for the C500ii owners to enjoy exclusive specs. Like you say, there is almost no reason for Canon to show their cards at this time. But these companies roll out on their own timeline.
 
Last edited:
JPNola said:
Well, I don't know about the suggestion that Sony is at a standstill. They just introduced an entirely new camera within the last year. I do know that Canon introducing a new camera at this time, during the pandemic, when the industry is at a virtual standstill, is really poor timing. Or let's say "unfortunate" timing.

I can't imagine that many businesses that have seen their revenue drop by 80% and are having to lay off employees are shopping for new gear right now. Most owner/ops have zero income at present.

If there is a time to be in between new releases, this is it. If there is a time to NOT be releasing a new camera, this is it.

The last thing on my mind right now is buying a new camera. My interest level, at this time, in the C300Mkiii is next to nil. I don't even know when I'll have work again.
Click to expand...

Good points. A lot of us have been furloughed or can't pick up gigs because they are non-existent and will be for the near future. And no one I know is spending money right now (at least in NYC where we're in lock down). And believe me it's tempting to when you see FS7's on Ebay for <$3000 ;)
 
JPNola said:
Well, I don't know about the suggestion that Sony is at a standstill. They just introduced an entirely new camera within the last year. I do know that Canon introducing a new camera at this time, during the pandemic, when the industry is at a virtual standstill, is really poor timing. Or let's say "unfortunate" timing.

I can't imagine that many businesses that have seen their revenue drop by 80% and are having to lay off employees are shopping for new gear right now. Most owner/ops have zero income at present.

If there is a time to be in between new releases, this is it. If there is a time to NOT be releasing a new camera, this is it.

The last thing on my mind right now is buying a new camera. My interest level, at this time, in the C300Mkiii is next to nil. I don't even know when I'll have work again.
Click to expand...

Definitely understood, but it's just an announcement; it's not clear when it's actually shipping.

Sony will probably introduce the FX6 next week.

Japan also has business in their own country (and others) to consider as well.
 
Sony desperately needs better codecs in the Fx9. Whether that is raw, or 12 bit XAVC or higher bit rate 10bit that was their huge error in the Fx9.
 
In all my years shooting, I've never really seen a definitive hammer drop of a product that takes out the competition. Yes, we've had some great products over the years that have sold well against others for a period, which is usually followed by another manufacturer bringing something else out. Recent years have given Sony the edge I'd say insofar as total units sold, however, again, all things change over time. To be honest, for the most part I've stopped paying attention to any and all marketing claims. I shoot with what I need, sometimes testing new cameras for jobs to see how they fit etc and just keep moving.

The C300MKIII with 4k 120fps, will be on my cameras to test list if its on the streets by December for January shoot.
 
4k 120fps will probably be a winner for some clients.

I think the ready-to-shoulder-mount form factor of the FX9 makes it more affordable for shooters who need that.

Personally, I'm juiced by the dual gain dynamic range boost, but I don't know if that spec is as obviously marketable as 120p.

What happens with the A7SIII will be interesting. Sony doesn't have a decent-spec gimbal/B camera to complement the FX9/FS7.

Personally, I bought an FS7 package in February (bad timing) for <$4k total because for the specs and the form factor, it's the best deal around, and still a capable and very marketable performer.
 
4K/120p is a great feature because it's awesome for running-and-gunning b-roll. And I'm not talking about things that look cool in slow-motion (like sports, etc. which is a given), but for filming any b-roll and having your bacon saved in times when something happens very quickly and/or you're shooting handheld (where stabilization is an issue).

In both situations, you can have many seconds of usable footage without any shake being too noticeable (if applicable).

4K/60p is nice, but sometimes it's just not slow enough for the aforementioned assistance. 1080/120p is what many of us used, but usually it's noticeably softer on a 4K timeline mixed with high-quality 4K footage.

(OTOH, if one is shooting 90% narrative, it's pretty useless.)
 
Last edited:
Joshua Milligan said:
Canon dropped the hammer today. The C500II was already a spectacular camera and the 1DXIII is an outstanding hybrid for the money. Now with today's announcement of the incredible C300III and full unveiling of the EOS R5 specs, where does that leave Sony, the FX9, FX6 and mirrorless line?
Click to expand...

They actually said there is till more to come with regards to R5 specs/features.
 
ahalpert said:
What else could there be?
Click to expand...

For the Canon R5? Two things that come to mind:

Some sort of neutral-density solution. Sort of like the EF-->R adapter that allows for drop in filters... But one that works with R-mount lenses:

EF-R_ADAPTER.jpg


A fuller audio story. Let us know that it supports 32-bit audio! Release an add-on XLR adapter like the one available for the Panasonic GH5:

GH5_XLR.jpg


I'm sure others will think of more stuff. :-) The R5 is really interesting; would love to have Canon (or good third-party developers) offer bits of kit to make it easier to work with than existing DSLR/mirrorless cameras. (Would love to see Sony, Panasonic, and Fujifilm do that too!) #morefunctionalitywithlessgak
 
The FS7 has been #1 in its niche for years, the FX9 seemed like the natural successor to take the throne. But this C300mk3 might steal it away from Sony??


FX9 vs C300mk3:
Identical price. (ok ok, FX9 is one dollar less!)
Identical power draw. (35.2W vs 31W. Low power draw matters, the 63W of the C500mk2 is not a good thing when you're a solo operator)
C300mk3 has better DR
Canon has internal raw, vs Sony's external raw (need's an expensive external extension too!)
EIS with the Canon is done internally for a smooth handover to post, vs done in post for the FX9. That's a point for Canon.
I'll give the nod slightly to Sony for having the more versatile mount, but this is no longer the massive edge Sony used to have over Canon. Where with Canon in the past you were stuck with either EF or PL once you bought it (or sometimes, interchangeable but only by Canon themselves), but Canon now offers a user swappable mount between EF or PL (plus a bonus: or positive locking EF mount!! Giving you three options).
NDs, Sony gets the nod again with the eNDs.
AF, the FX9 has greatly improved autofocus for a Sony, but probably Canon might get the nod here.
Likewise FX9 has greatly improved color science, but perhaps Canon might have the edge for the win here too?

Is FF alone enough to make the FX9 win over the C300mk3? I don't think so, the C300mk2 is in with a serious shot to make a claim for the #1 spot for cinema camera on low budget productions.

In a way, this coronavirus crisis is a blessing in disguise for Canon's C300mk3

A big factor in the failure for the C300mk2 to live up to the massive smash hit success of the C300mk1 was that the C300mk2 was released too late to the market. As by that point in time the Sony FS7 had already gained a strong grip on the market. (of course the C300mk2's high launch price and lack of 4K 60fps didn't help! But if the C300mk2 had came out a few months before the FS7 then the C300mk2 might have prevented the FS7 from becoming a runaway success)

Is the C300mk3 going to suffer the same fate again in being too late to the game? Perhaps not, FX9 has had a slow roll out due to needing a few firmware updates.

But additionally almost nobody has been making big camera purchases in recent weeks, and likely most will be holding off on a new camera purchase over the next few months while the dust of this economic crisis settles. Sony won't be selling too many more bodies between now and July 2020 when the C300mk3 is meant to ship.

Normally a company having most of a year as a head start over their competition gives them enough of a good solid lead that it is an uphill battle for anybody to overcome, but not this time. As much of that time has been lost in limbo while we're trapped by the impacts of the coronavirus. Canon C300mk3 has a real shot at this.
 
Jim Feeley said:
For the Canon R5? Two things that come to mind:

Some sort of neutral-density solution. Sort of like the EF-->R adapter that allows for drop in filters... But one that works with R-mount lenses:
Click to expand...

That will be impossible. You can't put something between an RF mount lens and RF mount camera without changing the flange depth distance. Of course, you'll be able to use the current adapter if you choose to use EF lenses.
 
IronFilm said:
The FS7 has been #1 in its niche for years, the FX9 seemed like the natural successor to take the throne. But this C300mk3 might steal it away from Sony??


FX9 vs C300mk3:
Identical price. (ok ok, FX9 is one dollar less!)
Identical power draw. (35.2W vs 31W. Low power draw matters, the 63W of the C500mk2 is not a good thing when you're a solo operator)
C300mk3 has better DR
Canon has internal raw, vs Sony's external raw (need's an expensive external extension too!)
EIS with the Canon is done internally for a smooth handover to post, vs done in post for the FX9. That's a point for Canon.
I'll give the nod slightly to Sony for having the more versatile mount, but this is no longer the massive edge Sony used to have over Canon. Where with Canon in the past you were stuck with either EF or PL once you bought it (or sometimes, interchangeable but only by Canon themselves), but Canon now offers a user swappable mount between EF or PL (plus a bonus: or positive locking EF mount!! Giving you three options).
NDs, Sony gets the nod again with the eNDs.
AF, the FX9 has greatly improved autofocus for a Sony, but probably Canon might get the nod here.
Likewise FX9 has greatly improved color science, but perhaps Canon might have the edge for the win here too?

Is FF alone enough to make the FX9 win over the C300mk3? I don't think so, the C300mk2 is in with a serious shot to make a claim for the #1 spot for cinema camera on low budget productions.

In a way, this coronavirus crisis is a blessing in disguise for Canon's C300mk3

A big factor in the failure for the C300mk2 to live up to the massive smash hit success of the C300mk1 was that the C300mk2 was released too late to the market. As by that point in time the Sony FS7 had already gained a strong grip on the market. (of course the C300mk2's high launch price and lack of 4K 60fps didn't help! But if the C300mk2 had came out a few months before the FS7 then the C300mk2 might have prevented the FS7 from becoming a runaway success)

Is the C300mk3 going to suffer the same fate again in being too late to the game? Perhaps not, FX9 has had a slow roll out due to needing a few firmware updates.

But additionally almost nobody has been making big camera purchases in recent weeks, and likely most will be holding off on a new camera purchase over the next few months while the dust of this economic crisis settles. Sony won't be selling too many more bodies between now and July 2020 when the C300mk3 is meant to ship.

Normally a company having most of a year as a head start over their competition gives them enough of a good solid lead that it is an uphill battle for anybody to overcome, but not this time. As much of that time has been lost in limbo while we're trapped by the impacts of the coronavirus. Canon C300mk3 has a real shot at this.
Click to expand...

those are good points. Usually Canon is a year or two late. This year purchase timelines for buyers is thrown off. May mean, by th time people are buying again, Canon's modest specs late to the show yet somehow better reputation, may do well this round.

The dual gain and 4K ski out is really getting me. Been wishing someone would do what Arri does for a long time.

Will be interesting to see, as they are cramming two two photo sites into one colour patch. That means the pixels are a little smaller. Individually they would supposedly get less DR than one pixel from the C500ii, but combined....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top