FS7: Sony in a C300III World

Run&Gun said:
...
Click to expand...

Why the ellipsis?

I had a lot of clients pass on my C300i when they wanted 1080 60p. I've had a lot of clients opt specifically for the fs7 because they wanted 4k 60p. And yes, I've had some clients settle for shooting 1080 60p for a 4k project on the C300mk2.

Having to downgrade the resolution to shoot slomo was always an Achilles heel of Canon cameras. In my view, a camera should be able to shoot at least 60fps in its maximum advertised framerate.
 
ahalpert said:
Why the ellipsis?

I had a lot of clients pass on my C300i when they wanted 1080 60p. I've had a lot of clients opt specifically for the fs7 because they wanted 4k 60p. And yes, I've had some clients settle for shooting 1080 60p for a 4k project on the C300mk2.

Having to downgrade the resolution to shoot slomo was always an Achilles heel of Canon cameras. In my view, a camera should be able to shoot at least 60fps in its maximum advertised framerate.
Click to expand...
That is understandable. I can get away with the resolution drop for a lot of things, but i just don’t like it. So, other than the 1DC, i never went for the C cams. Still think they’ve found a niche, but never been my preference.
 
James0b57 said:
That is understandable. I can get away with the resolution drop for a lot of things, but i just don’t like it. So, other than the 1DC, i never went for the C cams. Still think they’ve found a niche, but never been my preference.
Click to expand...

It's a mixed bag for me. For stuff I'm producing, usually I only receive a request for delivery resolution and possibly framerate. I could do whatever I want then and incorporate uprezzed off-speed stuff. I would consider that worth it if that higher framerate is needed.

For many clients, there may be a list or knowledge of acceptable cameras. Or they may want a certain brand in order to match footage (though obviously different models will not match perfectly). And sometimes they want a specific camera and, if the rate is sufficient, I can rent it if I don't own it.

The Komodo looks really cool to me. But I doubt it will be requested as an option instead of FS7/FX9/C300mk2&3/C500mk2. My guess is it will play as a RED B camera or the type of camera you can use when no one is asking. I owned a Scarlet years back but it wasn't a good money-maker because either people were excited to use it and had terrible budgets, or there was enough of a budget that renting an Epic instead was an easy choice. So I sold it and bought a C300 which worked out better even though the Scarlet had a better image IMO.
 
Last edited:
ahalpert said:
It's a mixed bag for me. For stuff I'm producing, usually I only receive a request for delivery resolution and possibly framerate. I could do whatever I want then and incorporate uprezzed off-speed stuff. I would consider that worth it if that higher framerate is needed.

For many clients, there may be a list or knowledge of acceptable cameras. Or they may want a certain brand in order to match footage (though obviously different models will not match perfectly). And sometimes they want a specific camera and, if the rate is sufficient, I can rent it if I don't own it.

The Komodo looks really cool to me. But I doubt it will be requested as an option instead of FS7/FX9/C300mk2&3/C500mk2. My guess is it will play as a RED B camera or the type of camera you can use when no one is asking. I owned a Scarlet years back but it wasn't a good money-maker because either people were excited to use it and had terrible budgets, or there was enough of a budget that renting an Epic instead was an easy choice. So I sold it and bought a C300 which worked out better even though the Scarlet had a better image IMO.
Click to expand...

Yeah, totally!

Firstly, Canon now has one of the most aggressive high frame rate options. 120fps at full sensor read out and 4K is actually not all that common in higher end cameras. Sure, Red Gemini, but it costs $35K for a ful setup.

So, going Canon no longer means bad slomo.... well, a drop in DR, instead of resolution.


Re: Komodo. Definitely will be almost every Red owner’s Bcam. And car mount dream (no slanted backgrounds!), drone work! Stunt work, all of that, but i won’t be doing full readout slomo. At least not since i last checked. I don’t think it even does 60fps at full sensor. It will “only” have Helium level DR, and that will drop when GS is enabled.

I’d imagine the BM type of film maker may also be the type of person to buy one. I’d inagine a Konodo would make a great DP’s practice camera. Low cost, small enough to take anywhere. Good way to stay sharp and shoot when between projects. While having better image quality than Zcam or BM pockets.

Re: Scarlet MX. I kind of believe all Red’s are bad investments. Unless you plan to stay in the eco system and some of the upgrade discounts offset some of the big initial cost. But so many people own them that aren’t real profit driven. They tend to be more altruistic. Then the market for these kind of cameras isn’t as straight forward as broadcast, or hollywood, and a lot of owner ops fall between the cracks. No one should buy a Red and rent it for as low as they do on sharegrid. No one should but a red and then not get a day rate, but they do. There are all kinds of people making a lot of money with Red’s but there are a lot of people buying reds that shouldn’t. The Scarlet X or MX whatever was a good example. It was actually a camera that was kind of... frustrating? The frame rates were pretty limiting. Trying to explain the need for a lens change, and whu the footage was “2K”. Oh, goodness! A lot of people had worked with an Epic, and just assumed “Red, oh yeah, i know Red, i love Red.” And then the Scarlet led to all kinds of technical discussions on set. Now, it would be nice to have a lot of prep days, but that isn’t the Scarlet MX market. Anyway, i am just echoing your sentiments. There is the uncanny valley with cameras, and the Scarlet was it.

To this day, Canon C series rides on the reputation of their stills division. Even the new body design of the C3003 and C5002 has homages to their flagship DSLR’s. Perhaps another reason so many in the video journalist and sports worlds jumped over, and indie Filmer's passions cooled on them. But money makers they were. Cheap enough to make money for almost anyone. Good enough to not get in the way. Easier to discuss 60p means 720p. Whereas Scarlet was resolution drop and a lens change, and discussion why the noose in the footage is more noticeable.... haha. Not the conversation to have on set when the music video director decides to go slomo on a whim, but wants to stick with the 25mm.
 
ahalpert said:
Why the ellipsis?

I had a lot of clients pass on my C300i when they wanted 1080 60p. I've had a lot of clients opt specifically for the fs7 because they wanted 4k 60p. And yes, I've had some clients settle for shooting 1080 60p for a 4k project on the C300mk2.

Having to downgrade the resolution to shoot slomo was always an Achilles heel of Canon cameras. In my view, a camera should be able to shoot at least 60fps in its maximum advertised framerate.
Click to expand...

Because I thought better after several minutes and decided to be a good neighbor and deleted my original comments and went and had a Klondike bar. I probably wouldn't have made the original comments I went back and deleted, if the other post had been like the one I'm responding to now. ; )

At the time it came out, I don't think there were a ton of cameras giving us 1080/60p, anyway. Most of us were still(at least up to that point) cranking out slow-mo on the workhorse VariCam at 720/60p, anyway, so no real change. I didn't really start getting requests for 1080/60p until well after I had gotten my F55, which at that point, the original C300 was several years old.
 
James0b57 said:
Re: Komodo. Definitely will be almost every Red owner’s Bcam. And car mount dream (no slanted backgrounds!), drone work! Stunt work, all of that, but i won’t be doing full readout slomo. At least not since i last checked. I don’t think it even does 60fps at full sensor. It will “only” have Helium level DR, and that will drop when GS is enabled.
Click to expand...

I've been keeping up with Komodo and the last I read from Jarred(a few months ago?) is that they have been getting such good performance from the sensor with global shutter that they may not even do a rolling shutter mode, as originally planned.
 
Run&Gun said:
Because I thought better after several minutes and decided to be a good neighbor and deleted my original comments and went and had a Klondike bar. I probably wouldn't have made the original comments I went back and deleted, if the other post had been like the one I'm responding to now. ; )
Click to expand...

Gotcha - it's possible that I miscommunicated my tone before because I wasn't trying to throw shade or anything :)
 
On a separate note - I totally love shooting with my S1. Obviously it doesn't have all the codecs and such of the S1H, but I don't really need that for what I use it for. I got it for $2300 with v-log and a 24-105, so for the value...

It's a great little camera that just GETS OUT OF MY WAY!

The battery life is great, software is stable, small size... I love it on my Ronin-S. The IBIS is really handy. No, it doesn't have usable AF but I'm used to MF and have a focus motor and a 7" monitor.

The dynamic range is totally adequate, the low-light performance is superb, skin tones look good, v-log is easy to grade, it has 10-bit 422 (albeit not in 4k 60p but at least it can DO 4k 60p).

The *one* thing I wish it had was a 12-bit H265 codec - does that exist? In particular, i remember a shot i had of a subject in shade against specular highlights glinting off the lake behind her. I underexposed her to try to tame the highlight rolloff, but when I went to lift her in post, the gradient on her skin really started losing subtlety before I could get her where I wanted her. So I had to leave her a bit dark. The dynamic range was there, but I didn't have enough shadow information.

Of course, Canon has 12-bit RAW but at 1gbps which is a bear if you're rolling a lot. Black magic has 12-bit raw and prores but again at high bitrates.

Is 12-bit H265 in the cards? The internet says it's possible... I would LOVE that. I don't care about the processing needs because I'm happy with my proxy workflow in FCPX...

Update: it looks like 12-bit BRAW 8:1 4K is 400mbps. That's the territory I'm looking for, but I'm not impressed with BM camera stability and general bullet-proofness vs Panasonic or other brands. Anyone have experience with the BMPCC4k or 6k?
 
Last edited:
NorBro said:
About half of the world...what would you like to know?
Click to expand...

1. Do you find that the shadows in BRAW maintain a more pleasing gradient after severe lifting in post vs. a 10-bit codec?

2. How about at compression ratios of 8:1 or smaller? Do the details get mushy and is the information lost in the shadows, canceling out the 12-bit advantage if you lift them severely?

3. What about camera stability? I read an awful review of the 6K at EOSHD (and he was really excited for the camera) citing long startup times, not always recording when you pushed the button, and of course the sudden battery death. The type of shoots where I'm not lighting to balance my exposure are the same type of shoots where I can't afford to spend 3 minutes screwing around with the camera.

4. Any prediction as to BM releasing a full-frame pocket?

FWIW the color science I see coming out of BM cameras is among the most pleasing out there IMO.

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
1. I only used BRAW in BM cameras (like the 4.6K) to take advantage of some of the non-ProRes options just to see what the resolutions/framerates looked like. I mainly use ProRes so I couldn't tell you, but I don't lift shadows too much so not sure I'd be able to answer even if I did use the format. (I was a heavy CinemaDNG guy with the old cameras. It's an amazing format and it's a shame it's gone.)

2. I always shoot the highest-quality possible. Even with REDs with the two I've owned (unless forced to lower ratios to capture more resolution/speed). So again I can't personally answer that, but people have expressed positive results with the higher compression. Your footage should take a hit, but it will depend on how heavily and much you manipulate it.

---I think YouTube would help you for the above. Even with the compression, you'd hear and see various results/thoughts.---

3. BM cameras may and do vary depending on which one you receive off of the conveyor belt. Quality control costs money and the prices of the cameras wouldn't be the same if every camera was exhausted with man/woman hours before shipping. With that said, the company is doing so much better with quality these days then when they first started. My main fear is losing frames, but people have had a wide range of issues from audio, to SDIs, to various artifacts, to broken buttons, etc. You may receive a camera that's perfect in every way, and/or you may receive one with a random issue(s).

4. It would make a lot of sense if they can squeeze a bigger sensor in there, but not sure how much room is left after the S35 went into the same body. Full-frame cameras should come though, and I think 8K is next for them too.

BM color science has always been beloved. Part of it is because they always processed and sampled motion pictures really well. Pretty images.
 
Thanks for the info - I've read/watched a lot of info but it's hard to know what to believe, especially with clickbait.

How often do dropped frames happen?

Do you just let the sky blow out rather than expose your subject in the shadows? I'm a big fan of keeping the sky dark enough to see rich blue tones, if possible. A sky in digital at the top of the exposure range can have such thin-looking color IMO.
 
In my case when I wrote losing frames, I meant ruined frames from random lines or purple static or some other artifacts - not from media. Although it's very random, I don't want it to happen at the worst time. (For dropped frames, the newer cameras stop recording. It was a nightmare on the older cameras as recording didn't stop when you were actually dropping frames due to slower card/SSD speeds. Eventually a warning icon was FW'd into the cameras.)

I mostly shoot indoors these days when I do. But if and when I'm outside, I would do the best I could with the camera I have, so that would include underexposing to keep the sky or trying to find a balance. When and if shooting RAW with some cameras, I could ETTR because I'd know I could pull a lot of it down, but I would never let anything blow in a shot besides windows if I had no choice. But a lot of cameras are pretty flexible. Even 8-bit cameras, but they are usually written off quickly because of that spec.
 
ahalpert said:
The *one* thing I wish it had was a 12-bit H265 codec - does that exist?
Click to expand...

There's even 16 bit.

But, if you have a small portion of the image that's giving you problems, you may want to rotoscope it. New editing tools should make it a lot easier than in the past.

NorBro said:
---I think YouTube would help you for the above. Even with the compression, you'd hear and see various results/thoughts.--- .
Click to expand...
FWIW, some YouTubers will upload in faux 8K to avoid some of the compression artifacts but then someone would have to watch it in 8K as well.
 
I appreciate the info.

How often would you estimate you encounter a ruined frame? Once every hour of footage? 10 hours? 10 minutes? Sorry to pester you.

Yeah most cameras are fine these days. But extreme contrast situations are easy to come by in doc and event shooting.
 
Truly random...it's not something you can anticipate or control; it's something I've never seen before in other cameras. Sometimes you'll be filming and a bunch of static just starts dancing on the screen or green lines randomly flash in the corners, and then sometimes you'll come home with 300 perfect clips. Over the years, a lot of people on forums have written about this random corruption (it comes and goes), but there's never been an answer besides RMAing the camera if possible (but what's the point if the next one may do it too).

Heat? Software? Hardware? Media slowing down? Writing to a bad portion of media? It's unknown...
 
DLD said:
There's even 16 bit.
Click to expand...

Yes, but 10-bit is almost good enough for me. And I'd be looking for a cheap, small camera with internal recording and manageable file sizes.

I used to have a Scarlet-X and the 16-bit R3D was a joy to push around. For daylight exteriors, I would expose at ISO 320 and protect my highlights. I could count on pulling everything out of the shadows. When exposing at 800 or 1600, not so much since it was a noisy camera (especially since its max resolution was a slight crop of the full sensor).
 
NorBro said:
Truly random...it's not something you can anticipate or control; it's something I've never seen before in other cameras. Sometimes you'll be filming and a bunch of static just starts dancing on the screen or green lines randomly flash in the corners, and then sometimes you'll come home with 300 perfect clips. Over the years, a lot of people on forums have written about this random corruption (it comes and goes), but there's never been an answer besides RMAing the camera if possible (but what's the point if the next one may do it too).

Heat? Software? Hardware? Media slowing down? Writing to a bad portion of media? It's unknown...
Click to expand...

That's crazy. Sounds like the type of camera you can only use if no one is looking over your shoulder or reviewing your dailies. Or on an indy music video or short film.

Of course, I'm one of the people who thought the 5Dmk2 was worth the hassle to get the look. But there were no other large sensor cameras around. I'm not sure the performance advantages of the BM are enough to justify the possibility of missing a shot (especially for events, though I've seen wedding videos shot with them).
 
I like to think of the cameras as cinematic imaging systems for when risk is okay. Versus filming a once-in-a-lifetime exclusive one-cam interview with Jeff Bezos cameras. Or once-in-a-lifetime events (unless you have multiple cameras rolling).

Commercials - music videos - any film work without stars worth millions - events where you can just roam around and shoot freely - etc.

Weddings usually have a few cameras so they would work there too (and if they are all Blackmagics hopefully they all don't fail at the same time).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top