F55: Sony F55, Red Scarlet or Arri Amira

Viscount Omega said:
Hey Guys--

I'm in the market to upgrade my current camera (A7SII) and was wondering what your opinions were.

It's for my personal use to make low-budget indie films. I'm not looking to "get work" with the camera or rent it out.

I have about $40K (+/-) to spend on the camera and I'm looking at the Sony F55, Red Scarlet or Arri Amira. My budget could go higher if it's worth it though.

I'm a little inexperienced and concerned there are drawbacks with each camera to watch out for that I'm not aware of and will cause me regret.

Thanks.
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If you're making low budget indie films with no expectation of profit, then just get yourself a Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera, maybe even two! (as often very handy indeed to have a B cam)

Because once you add up audio/lighting/rigging/lenses/expendables/etc etc etc.... all those costs add up very fast to a LOT! And you'll be glad you just got a Micro Cinema Camera (which is capable of very very nice images when treated right!).

Or if you really are itching to blow money.... get yourself an URSA Mini Pro 4.6K, or Kinefinity Terra 6K (or 5K, when it comes out).
Or bargains can be found with secondhand Sony FS7 / F5 if you wait around then pounce.

Spending anything more than that is seriously overkill (heck, a UM4.6K is already overkill by far for this situation!), when what really matters is talent plus all the many many other supporting factors (lighting/audio/actors/locations/etc etc etc etc).
 
Viscount Omega said:
Owning gives me time to have practice, experience and confidence with the camera. I don't want to feel rushed like I'm on the clock.
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But that will take you years and YEARS to get the practice/experience/confidence you need to truly master a camera!

So why spend $40K when you're never going to be using a camera at more than 25% of its potential?

That extra 0.5% between a $10K and $40K camera then becomes almost next to meaningless, and there is no point spending that extra money when you're only get 25% of the potential out of the camera.

stokstad said:
Not all will agree, but have you considered buying a used Sony F3?

If you find one with the bodyarmour, slog444 key and get a zacuto eye, Vlocks and Oddysey 7Q its basicly as close you can get to an amira thats not Arri (besides F35).
Shoots great 1080p 60p in 10bit. Great lens mount. Great image. Best lowlight I´ve seen. Perfect indie camera.

2 big and bulky for my taste in solo-operator style though.
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Agreed. Although an FS700 goes for crazy low prices now too, and that does 4K raw (even 4K at 120fps!!).
 
of the many, many things that contribute to what the final polished product looks like, the choice between any of the 5-40k large sensor cameras is close to the bottom, a skilled DP with an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the camera at the very top. The rest is planing; shooting exteriors at the right time of day, being skilled at lighting, good direction etc. And not having time-money constraints doesn't help the process at all- limitation is the fuel of all creativity. Spielberg mechanical shark blew a fuse on production day 2 there was no money for a replacement so he shot 'Jaws' without a shark.
 
IronFilm said:
But that will take you years and YEARS to get the practice/experience/confidence you need to truly master a camera!
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Good cameras, you take em out the box, hit record and get nice stuff that plops into post and does what you want. The donkeys take years to learn.

One good reason to splash out on a top end camera.
 
What a bizarre thread.

You say you have $20K of support gear. What does that include? What specific tripod? Is it a proper head that can handle a 15kg+ rig (not just "hold", but "handle" - there's a big difference!)? Do you have a set of PL lenses yet? What about lighting? Images will still look flat and thin unless you have good lighting, regardless of the camera & codec.

What are your reasons for wanting to upgrade your camera? Can you show us examples of your work which specifically show us these deficiencies, so that we can give you the best solutions?

What other cameras have you used in the past? What did you like/dislike about them? What shooting style do you prefer most often (easyrig vs shoulder vs tripod/dolly)?

I agree with most others here that you should buy a cheaper camera and spend the rest on quality crew & locations.
 
It's the reverse. I'm trying not to spend money on locations. I have the ones I need through sweet talking. The actors and crew? Amazon gift cards. LOL. And they're fine with it.

I see a film as a timeline of shots, A-Z. Many of the shots in my story don't require a crew. Maybe one or two people at the most. A lot of the shots and sound I can do myself.
 
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icarusfilm said:
What kind of juice are we talking: pineapple? Orange?
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Boysenberry--that's the secret.

Nah, it just means something compelling like a good premise. Exciting. Juice=electricity or energy drink. It's a slang street term but I've heard screenwriters use it too.

For example, when I read the script for Polish Wedding in 1995 I knew by page 20 it suffered from a lack of juice and was dead on arrival but they financed it anyway. I thought it could have used a half-gallon of juice.
 
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Im a tad confused. With your current set up you can practice composition and lighting etc etc. Which is what you're looking to do. When it comes to creating the feature, give yourself an extra week with the camera package rental for testing prior to shoot. Go to locations and test test test. Pre pro is key to getting it all right. As to what camera, what are the key requirements of your feature? Is it heavy in VFX? Is it a drama? What's the theme and mood you're looking for. Most cameras nowadays have a particular strength that will help tell a story depending on what it is.
 
Publimix said:
The more I carry my FS7 with heavy tripod around, the more I want a very light camera.
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I carried around an URSA (20lbs+) and was mentally exhausted after a year.

I personally won't own a heavy camera anymore. It has to have a total ready-to-go weight of 3-5lbs, ha.

Just more liberating for me (can run around with it more, fly it, etc).
 
stokstad said:
Not all will agree, but have you considered buying a used Sony F3?

If you find one with the bodyarmour, slog444 key and get a zacuto eye, Vlocks and Oddysey 7Q its basicly as close you can get to an amira thats not Arri (besides F35).
Shoots great 1080p 60p in 10bit. Great lens mount. Great image. Best lowlight I´ve seen. Perfect indie camera.

2 big and bulky for my taste in solo-operator style though.
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I second this. It truly produces an organic looking image with gentle roll off. You can pick one up for around $2k. Frankly it still produces a lot nicer image than anything I have seen from Blackmagic, who never has advanced their color science properly (you will almost always see cyan rather than blue skies from it for instance - it is so low saturation that when you correct it, it will almost always look "colored", like repainted black and white due to problems at the edges of its color spectrum that are responsible for transitions). No the F3 does not shoot 4k, but neither does the Alexa really - it is UHD upscaled from a 2500 pixel sensor. The F3 also has a similar sized sensor and both of these cameras have the largest pixel pitch of any of the cameras out there. This is what helps create such an organic look. Frankly it looks less videolike than the F5 or F55 for this reason. Sometimes, more resolution , is not a good thing.

In terms of Red, only the newest sensors like helium look good in terms of shadow noise, but at that price point get an Alexa. Why ? Because it is the only camera that will hold its value. From an investment point of view, that is very telling.
 
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Man, I've looked at about 200 pics of different Alexa Mini rigs and none of them look comfortable to me. Looks like shooting with a robot.

And I can't take any of the big cameras outside around the city without an armed bodyguard and a film permit, so scratch that.

So here's what I'm thinking:

A7SII or FS5 for the difficult locations. (Still waiting for the 10 bit A7S III, Sony!)

F3 or F35 for places where I have time and control. You say it's more filmic than the F55 for a fraction of the cost? Sold!

Then I have all Sony footage. My footage might not match perfectly but it might be acceptable to the average viewer.

Or would it?
 
Viscount Omega said:
Man, I've looked at about 200 pics of different Alexa Mini rigs and none of them look comfortable to me. Looks like shooting with a robot.

And I can't take any of the big cameras outside around the city without an armed bodyguard and a film permit, so scratch that.

So here's what I'm thinking:

A7SII or FS5 for the difficult locations. (Still waiting for the 10 bit A7S III, Sony!)

F3 or F35 for places where I have time and control. You say it's more filmic than the F55 for a fraction of the cost? Sold!

Then I have all Sony footage. My footage might not match perfectly but it might be acceptable to the average viewer.

Or would it?
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The F3 is much lighter and less intense than the F35.
I have an A7S and I use them together all the time.
However, the F3 looks MUCH better than even 4K footage from the A7S.
Clean skin, good seperation, less noise.
And at $2K you can afford to not be too precious with it.
You don't need a convergent design recorder either.
An Atomos Shogun/Samurai or Pix-E5 is just fine.

A lot of this stuff was shot on it (in SLOG - my grading showreel by the way):
https://vimeo.com/200317092
 
External recorder....Ugh.

What is the best internal recording spec you can get with it? Is it mediocre?

Btw, I saw your grading reel. Good stuff. But that's way too much detail for me. Too sharp, too pixelated. But I think I can fix that with settings and some older lenses. And are you shooting at 25 or 30 frames per second? Not enough motion blur for filmic look.
 
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