F55: Sony F55, Red Scarlet or Arri Amira

Viscount Omega said:
The VariCam LT looks interesting. I have to research that one a little.

I know the importance of lenses, lights, locations, sound, actors, etc.. I want to focus on the best camera I can afford right now.

The Arri Amira looks easy to use with an easy workflow but I wonder if I can get the look I'm after. A lot of the footage lacks contrast and color to me. It has a "log" look to it. I downloaded some ungraded Amira footage and when I tried to add more contrast and color to it, it turned ugly very quickly. It wasn't high quality ungraded footage though.

I like some of the Red footage I've seen but some message board users complain about hassles working with that camera.

I'm used to the Sony cameras. The F55 has global shutter which is great but I wonder if I can grade the raw footage to look filmic enough. Here's a link to some films shot with the F55 but I haven't seen any of them.

https://shotonwhat.com/cameras/sony-pmw-f55-camera

Watching movies as "research". I like it.
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I really think you need to do a lot more (and I mean a lot more) research before spending the kind of money you are talking about. No offense, but you sound like someone with very little experience in regards to advanced cameras and are going to get burned. You are talking about $50-100k in gear before it's all said and done and an advanced post workflow that is far more complicated than shooting on an A7s.

I strongly suggest that your producer puts you in touch with a highly experienced DP who's handled more than a DSLR shoot before you start writing checks.
 
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Donny 123 said:
what are your problems with HFR ?..
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My FS7 'negative' seems way 'thinner' above 72FPS and doesnt do 4k at all above 60, I know that the 5/55 have crept ahead of the FS7 with both onboard data rates and further options via recorders with newer firmwares.

The 5/55 is 240 in HD only ?
 
morgan_moore said:
My FS7 'negative' seems way 'thinner' above 72FPS and doesnt do 4k at all above 60, I know that the 5/55 have crept ahead of the FS7 with both onboard data rates and further options via recorders with newer firmwares.

The 5/55 is 240 in HD only ?
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The 55 can do 240 in 2K RAW and 120 in 4K RAW(with the new R7 recorder). I believe you can actually have a buffer, now, when shooting HFR with it. I'd have to check on the new X-OCN codec. The 55 can also do up to 180 in HD/2K on-board in XAVC.
 
Echoing what others have said here, you really should rent all these cameras for a weekend and try them all out. Spend $2500 renting all of them and use each camera for a while to see which one feels good in your hands. All the cameras discussed in this thread are excellent. Seriously. If you can't make amazing looking images with one of them, you can't make amazing looking images with any of them. Therefore, test them all out ahead of time, because it really, really is subjective. One of them will feel better to you than the others. Pick that one.

Would you buy a $40K car without test driving it first? I certainly wouldn't.

Good luck, and keep us posted!
 
I like the "rent first" advice but having looked at footage from all of these cameras, I already know I'm going to get the Amira--and the thing is, I already know I'm not going to be completely happy with it.

It will never look like the daytime shots of "The Wicker Man" (1973). LOL.
 
Viscount Omega said:
I like the "rent first" advice but having looked at footage from all of these cameras, I already know I'm going to get the Amira--and the thing is, I already know I'm not going to be completely happy with it.

It will never look like the daytime shots of "The Wicker Man" (1973). LOL.
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I know an Amira owner who loves his Amira.

FJS has several pre-owned Amira packages in the $40k range:

http://www.fjsinternational.com/cameras.html

As the linked video said, ARRI is the Lamborghini of cameras. While $40k is a significant amount of money, it isn't as if you would not be able to re-sell the camera and recoup most of what you paid for it should you change your mind a year down the road. In that sense you are only risking the difference between what you pay and what you can get in resale.

FJS also has a very complete Sony F55 package for USD$ 24,975. That leaves budget for a tripod and a prime lens set, something the asking price for the Amira does not.

Yours is a nice problem to have. :happy:
 
Have you ever shouldered an Amera?

Wonderful thing but needs a pro grip package and an assistant between takes.. (IMO)
 
Having used all the cameras you've mentioned and owing an FS7 and a Red Scarlet-W, here's my opinion.

People say put the money towards good glass. Forget about that. Yes it last longer but good glass is insanely expensive. You can easily spend over $100,000 on good cine PL glass. Just get some decent lenses for yourself - Zeiss Primes are quite nice and work great 90% of the time. If you need that extra 10% of perfection, rent some Cookes, Arri Master Primes, etc... because that's not something you should buy unless you're rich.

Amira. I personally really like the Arri color science, but the camera is way too big. When you've become used to smaller cameras like the FS7, Red, Canon, etc.. going back to a large camera is an eye opener. It's very heavy and the due to the weight, all your rigging Tripods, jibs, sliders, etc.. has to be bumped up as well.

I would say an Alexa Mini is my preferred choice since it's smaller. However, the body design on the Mini is pretty terrible and requires massive rigging. There are no mounting points, the air vent is in the back (very bad design choice) so the battery requires weird rigging and there is no internal mics which is a huge drag for stuff that requires just a scratch track and gimbals when sound is needed.

Red. I really like the Scarlet-W. Before I was a big Pro-Res person, but since getting on R3D, for CINEMATIC / Crew work I'd take it over Pro-Res. The post flexibility is insane and for myself it's worth dealing with RAW, which is not as bad as you think. I love the ability to tweak the white balance (which I do tons for grading), post ISO adjustments and just leaving final look decisions to post is great. I would say I still prefer the color science of Alexa, but I prefer the codec of Red. Also, the Red bodies are designed way better than the Alexa Mini. It's so easy to rig the Scarlet-W into many configurations as the body design is very well thought out. S-W can now shoot 4K Pro-Res which is great, but I haven't used it yet. One major drawback to Red is NO internal NDs. When you get used to those, it's a huge drag not to have it.

F55 - I have an FS7 which has a very similar color science to the F55. I personally prefer the Alexa and Red look, then Sony; but I'm able to get great images out of my FS7 with little effort. F55 has never really caught on like Alexa and Red, but still a good all around camera. I like that it can shoot RAW but also has an excellent compressed codec which are great for when you have to work fast. For doc work and fast turnaround, I do prefer a compressed coded (Pro-Res, XAVC-I).

Bunch of plus and minus to all systems. Nothing is perfect.
 
That's a good point about the size. They're all pretty large cameras that attract attention on the street. ("Sir, do you have a film permit?") Even the Mini is not so "mini" when it's rigged. The A7SII is great because I blend in like a tourist in D.C.

I'll finish my current project on the A7SII, then see if anything new comes up from companies before I decide.
 
I don't know, man, but if all you are looking to do is personal indie projects, I'd take a hard look at the new Ursa Mini Pro and save about $32k of your $40k budget (or get a used 4.6k & save about $36k). Keep your A7S II for super low-light work and you have a solid RAW/prores capable camera for everything else. Switchable PL/EF mount for cheap or expensive glass. The look is closer to an Alexa than a RED or Sony if you prefer that. I've shot a lot of Sony recently (FS700, FS7, F5, a7s) and BMD does quite a bit better with skin tones in my opinion.

I mean, there really isn't an argument that an Alexa or Scarlet-W is a better camera, but I can think of a ton of things to use $32k on when shooting an indie film that will make it a better movie than what camera you use.
 
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Yeah if its all your money and you aren't making any of it back on kit rentals, you may want to figure out if the Ursa Mini Pro does what you want. It's hard to argue with the value and feature-set. What kind of shooting do you do? What size crew? What kind of content? Have you thought of just adding a shogun or other 4K recorder+monitor to your A7S2?

If money is no issue then Alexa mini is still pretty great and the best out there image quality wise. I just saw Bright tangerine is coming out with a great looking side/rear mount cage that seems to overcome some of the ergonomic issues (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvJEcv44was) . Is weight or power an issue? A7S2 sure is nice to be able to pop on a gimbal/polecam and have autofocus when you need it... Will you want to be able to put your camera on a gimbal?

Kind of sounds like Arri amira/mini may be out of your price range even used? I wouldn't buy an F55 now though you could probably find a deal on an F65 :) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/292101222887)
 
As others have said, you're much better off get a BM Ursa Mini and putting the other $30K towards your film. That camera has a fantastic image under right circumstances (not low light).

What's the point of spending $40K on a camera and be left with no money. Good locations ($$$$$) and art direction is way, way more important than the camera because what good is a camera when you can only shoot in your buddy's studio Apt. with white walls?
 
I would go with the Varicam LT. The Amira is very heavy and very power hungry. Varicam has an amazing color excellent HFR it is also a true 4k camera.
 
A few years ago, I was scanning the Cinematography forums and someone asked in his first post there, "Hi, I am looking to shoot some music videos, maybe a short. What camera would you recommend?"

And someone immediately replied, "Try an Alexa".

Which was a joke.
 
with that kind of money, I would invest some of it, buy a nice used miata, or porsche boxster, and rent cameras for indie projects. makes no sense if you're not looking to get work, or have that gear pay for itself. take a vacation as well.
 
C100Scottie said:
with that kind of money, I would invest some of it, buy a nice used miata,....
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A used Miata? Pffft. It's all limos, casinos, hookers and coke 24/7 for me.

I find it funny that you guys think I'm rich.

I think Sony has done an amazing engineering job with only 8 bits with the A7SII but I find the footage a little bit wanting. The average Joe might not notice but I do and that makes it harder for me to get out of bed.

Like opening a restaurant, attempting a feature is a huge risk. You can do everything right and still fail. Maybe it just doesn't resonate with people.

My current project is a wicked dark comedy with so much juice I need paper towels to talk about it. It might fail but if I own the equipment I can try again. The premise is solid.

And btw, I never said 40K was the total budget. That was allotted for the camera.
 
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Viscount Omega said:
A used Miata? Pffft. It's all limos, casinos, hookers and coke 24/7 for me.

I find it funny that you guys think I'm rich.

I think Sony has done an amazing engineering job with only 8 bits with the A7SII but I find the footage a little bit wanting. The average Joe might not notice but I do and that makes it harder for me to get out of bed.

Like opening a restaurant, attempting a feature is a huge risk. You can do everything right and still fail. Maybe it just doesn't resonate with people.

My current project is a wicked dark comedy with so much juice I need paper towels to talk about it. It might fail but if I own the equipment I can try again. The premise is solid.

And btw, I never said 40K was the total budget. That was allotted for the camera.
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If all you want is to shoot a feature then rent an Alexa mini. Why own?? Giant waste of money.
 
Ya, you can rent an Amira body w/ viewfinder and some other bits for two weeks for about $4,000. Or more, depending on where you rent, how much support you need (such as an ability to get a replacement body the same day). A month shouldn't be twice as expensive (sorry; I haven't asked to rent any Arri camera for that long).

Renting could be a great way to go, especially considering how quickly cameras go out of fashion.
 
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