You would need the original files.
F55: Sony F55, Red Scarlet or Arri Amira
- Thread starter Viscount Omega
- Start date
You would need the original files.
You can't just randomly point an Arri Alexa in whatever direction then press record, and hope to get good footage. That is what I meant by it taking years and years to master.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Well worked with an Amera last week and it look pretty sweet with the 709 lut - I assume that passed solidly to post - seemed simple to me.
Obviously we still had to create engaging content - which we may or may not have done but the camera was not a wall interfering with that process.
Obviously we still had to create engaging content - which we may or may not have done but the camera was not a wall interfering with that process.
Viscount Omega
Carbonite Member
Great advice from yoclay so far--best ever-- but the above statement has always bothered me. Esp. the part about "moving up the food chain".
I just hate it.
It makes me sound like I'm a wannabe cinematographer or gun-for-hire hack. I regard myself as an amateur filmmaker seeking the advice of experienced camera guy professionals--like you guys. (Although some of you might be hacks, LOL)
Difference.
People ask me all the time: "Who's the greatest cinematographer?"
"Yoclay", I'll say.
"Never heard of him."
"Pffft."
Walk away shaking my head.
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S
S
As someone who has always chosen the harder route, personal/artisitc vs commercial, I understand your consternation, however when I refer to food chain the reference is not personal. What I am referring to is the business side and the notion of "investment". I do not buy into the notion that people necessarily need an Alexa to make good images. The principal reason productions use them is less about quality (though excellent) than reliability. I have seen an Alexa burnt to a crisp in a fire which still turned on and could shoot ! Also, they are far simpler to use than most less expensive cameras, can resist heavy production schedules and well balanced for a variety of tasks including on the shoulder. Yes they deliver a nice image, but in the vast majority of cases the quality of the image is only marginally better and a question of nuances rather than grand leaps. What counts more and what people often mistakenly attribute to the camera is often in fact a higher level of production values and control, including light, acting, decor, machinery and professionalism.
In the hierarchy of productions time begins to matter more than the cost of a camera. Scrolling through long complex menus on a Sony for instance becomes a deficit. Until RED finally understands this, they will always take second place to the Alexa. Alas, they still think resolution and a multitude of technical choices is the answer. How wrong they are.?Thus simple, strong, reliable are the watchwords. It is in this context that one might spend $10k on a tripod for instance. So yes buying an alexa is a question of moving up the chain in terms of the INDUSTRY of making films. If you have the intention of doing this, by all means invest in an alexa or an amira, but maybe not a mini, which was always only meant to be a compliment to the other two. If quality is what you are after (and I sense it is), my opinion is that above all control your light with regards to the limits of the camera you chose (in this case I still feel the F3 + recorder is an excellent next step). Then invest in quality support equipment you can use later in your career and let the soul of your projects be the single determinant of the camera that follows each time.
S
As someone who has always chosen the harder route, personal/artisitc vs commercial, I understand your consternation, however when I refer to food chain the reference is not personal. What I am referring to is the business side and the notion of "investment". I do not buy into the notion that people necessarily need an Alexa to make good images. The principal reason productions use them is less about quality (though excellent) than reliability. I have seen an Alexa burnt to a crisp in a fire which still turned on and could shoot ! Also, they are far simpler to use than most less expensive cameras, can resist heavy production schedules and well balanced for a variety of tasks including on the shoulder. Yes they deliver a nice image, but in the vast majority of cases the quality of the image is only marginally better and a question of nuances rather than grand leaps. What counts more and what people often mistakenly attribute to the camera is often in fact a higher level of production values and control, including light, acting, decor, machinery and professionalism.
In the hierarchy of productions time begins to matter more than the cost of a camera. Scrolling through long complex menus on a Sony for instance becomes a deficit. Until RED finally understands this, they will always take second place to the Alexa. Alas, they still think resolution and a multitude of technical choices is the answer. How wrong they are.?Thus simple, strong, reliable are the watchwords. It is in this context that one might spend $10k on a tripod for instance. So yes buying an alexa is a question of moving up the chain in terms of the INDUSTRY of making films. If you have the intention of doing this, by all means invest in an alexa or an amira, but maybe not a mini, which was always only meant to be a compliment to the other two. If quality is what you are after (and I sense it is), my opinion is that above all control your light with regards to the limits of the camera you chose (in this case I still feel the F3 + recorder is an excellent next step). Then invest in quality support equipment you can use later in your career and let the soul of your projects be the single determinant of the camera that follows each time.
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Viscount Omega
Carbonite Member
There's a lot to unpack in your comments (thanks for that) but this made me laugh because I've seen the menus for the F3--it looks like Space Invaders from 1980. This alone is worth 38K to get rid of.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Ive been doing a shot today on my FS7.. it is looking great.. but every time I put a card in or out it asks me to reconfigure the card, the camera then asks for APR - its about 10 button presses to get the thing working. And (im doing some slomo shots) scrubbing through to 'the good bit' is taking hours - so a camera that is nice to use would be above the FS7 - I dont actually know if the alexa is nice to use.. like intuitive to scrub through a long slo-motion take.
Also the HFR (above 72FPS is looking crap on the FS7) - 4k/50 is looking sweet.
S
Also the HFR (above 72FPS is looking crap on the FS7) - 4k/50 is looking sweet.
S
Menu systems tend to be a function of manufacturer lineage. Sony cameras have plenty of menus because they are the descendants of video cameras which provide you the option to make a lot of adjustments to the image should you choose to do so. As it happens, the F3 menus are the 'children' of the EX1 menu system -- which are far less complex or comprehensive than the menus from the traditional shoulder-mount ENG cameras. Having been familiar with the Sony menus, I find the F3 menus much easier and faster to navigate than those of the C300, Varicam or Amira.
The Alexa is of course a descendant of a line of film cameras - which had almost no menus. Of course this also means that any of the 'sony style' adjustments you might have wanted to have made on set, you may end up needing to do in postproduction (where you can check out all the menus that Resolve has to offer!)
If you're not dealing with clients who demand a specific camera or resolution, you really may want to seriously try out an F3, I still use mine about 5 days a month. It really provides a wonderful image at a great price point. Though if you're shooting s-log -- do your own testing!! - and use an external recorder. (A while back I shot a feature with F3/S-Log/uncompressed recording and decided to ETTR after doing exposure and color correction tests -- and viewing the tests on a 20' theater screen coming off a 4k projection system.)
Viscount Omega
Carbonite Member
A revelation just hit me--like a bolt of lightning out of the sky--I can buy either an Amira or an F3 and be fine either way.
To wit: the Amira will produce the best images and hold its resale value, OR the F3 is cheaper and there's no personal investment lost if the film is crap.
Therefore, I must buy the Amira.
(I just have to be more careful where I take it)
I might lose $10,000 in resale of an Amira but it also costs a lot of money to rig an F3.
Think of the Amira images....nevermind--you already know.
To wit: the Amira will produce the best images and hold its resale value, OR the F3 is cheaper and there's no personal investment lost if the film is crap.
Therefore, I must buy the Amira.
(I just have to be more careful where I take it)
I might lose $10,000 in resale of an Amira but it also costs a lot of money to rig an F3.
Think of the Amira images....nevermind--you already know.
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I dont understand your logic. It absolutely does not cost a lot to "rig" an F3. A used F3 with a recorder costs $2k + $1k ($3k). A used Amira costs around $40k. Thats a massive difference.There is nothing about "rigging" an F3 that is remotely close to the cost of the latter. The evf for the arri alone could set you back several thousand dollars. What does the F3 need ? A Berkey top plate for $100 ? Otherwise, if you are speaking about support equipment like tripods, you are going to need exactly the same if not even more heavy duty for the Amira, but those costs are general and long term investments regardless of the camera you choose. It apoears to me that you are trying to justify the purchase of a high ticket tool. Dont bother, buy the Amira and be done with it, but most certainly do not justify it based on some idea of extra costs for the F3, which are quite honestly a pittance.
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Viscount Omega
Carbonite Member
Ok. The cost of rigging an F3 and dealing with the menus is about the same as the loss I would take buying (and later reselling) an Amira. That's what I mean. "dealing with the menus" is not a quantifiable cost, I know, but it's huge.
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Grug
Veteran
The boot times on the Arri are a killer, but I did a job on it today, and outside of the weight and power consumption (which aren't small issue, mind you) - it's pretty delightful.
Formatting cards or changing major settings is never more than a couple of clicks away, clip playback isn't too painful (it's certainly simpler than with the Sonys at least). And we shot a bit of 120fps stuff too, which is just as pristine as the regular footage - no cropping into the sensor, no weird jagged edges, compromised compression or aliasing - just the same lovely pictures, at 120fps.
It was just me and one assistant, which was manageable because we weren't slating. But you'd certainly struggle to use the camera without at least one helping hand - that's the proper Alexa though, the Amira is much more manageable for a solo shooter.
Viscount Omega
Carbonite Member
So you disagree with my logic, and you think renting a camera for a week or whatever will produce better results in the end?
Couldn't disagree harder.
Being a cinematographer is a specialized skill and you guys seem to be very particular about images.
I wonder what some of you would do if we were filming a scene in a restaurant, you were standing beside me and I said, "The 50 ain't cutting it, get the 416."
Would you even know wtf I'm talking about?
I might be a neophyte but there's more to it.
Couldn't disagree harder.
Being a cinematographer is a specialized skill and you guys seem to be very particular about images.
I wonder what some of you would do if we were filming a scene in a restaurant, you were standing beside me and I said, "The 50 ain't cutting it, get the 416."
Would you even know wtf I'm talking about?
I might be a neophyte but there's more to it.
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You would be saying that you prefer the classic Sennheiser 416 instead of the MKH-50 (or 8050) for the shot.
And I would respond that I prefer the CMC641 and that it is probably more appropriate because of the height of the ceilings and the quantity of reflections. And then I might even consider tightening up the shot so that the guy on the boom could get a little closer.
I would also say that it appears you are using this thread to convince yourself about something that you have already decided.
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icarusfilm
Veteran
If I had a pile of money laying around that needed to be spent I would get the mini Alexa I would pair it up with the three Zeiss Otus primes build a minimal rig with an evf rods and FF and a light matte box. Record all audio separately synched by TC. Keep it very light and very simple. The Amira is lighter than an Alexa but still very heavy for my taste.
Viscount Omega
Carbonite Member
yoclay=genius.
Pure, unmitigated genius.
Nah, surprisingly to you maybe, I'm not using this thread to make a decision from a long time ago. It was like, Saturday, when I saw the menus for the F3.
I've already got a 40--it does the same job--no rear lobe. LOL.
Pure, unmitigated genius.
Nah, surprisingly to you maybe, I'm not using this thread to make a decision from a long time ago. It was like, Saturday, when I saw the menus for the F3.
I've already got a 40--it does the same job--no rear lobe. LOL.
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You are buying a $40K+ camera to shoot for a week ?
Viscount Omega
Carbonite Member
Only after I stop beating my wife.
Wtf?
Are you trying to make some syllogistic point? I don't get it.
Wtf?
Are you trying to make some syllogistic point? I don't get it.
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You are the one who mentioned a week, not myself. If you are honestly considering buying a camera for a week long project, then I would say, rent.
But beyond that, why are you being so belligerent ? You ask for people's opinions, the consensus tell you that there are probably wiser ways to spend your money elsewhere and yet you don't seem to be listening.
Further, I don't swear at you, so what's with that ?
You raise a rhetorical question about microphones, which I happen to be very familiar with and then you insult me when I answer.
You really need to take it down a notch. No one hear really cares how you spend your money, but if you want to hear some other considered opinions besides your own, then you really need to stay a little more open and a little less defensive.
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