Sony 8K CineAlta rumor

JMtheDP said:
Anyone curious should look up Panavision's "Dynamax" sensor... sounded like a revolution, apparently they could never get it to work.
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Sony already has its A7RII sensor working but in the pixel binning mode for 4K. It fully reads the cropped s35 image for an oversampled 4K (off 15 MPX). Panasonic's DVX200 will also have an oversampled 4K from ~ 13.5 MPX. Sony's has a horrible rolling shutter effect, as reading 15 MPX simultaneously is obviously very taxing on a $3,200 camera and, to do 8K, it'll need to read 33 MPX rather than 15.

My engineering expertise ends there but I have to believe this is eminently doable, considering that Samsung's NX1 reads its 26 MPX sensor simultaneously - for an oversampled 4K too - in a $1,300 mirrorless body. The rest is on the processing, memory, heat sink, etc.
 
Let's say I take one of the new Mac Pro towers with MS Office installed, write up my resume, and print it off on whatever laser printer they're selling down at Best Buy today. Now, let's say I dig up and dust off some old Win 95 Pentium desktop and some laser printer they were selling in 1996, and write up my resume on that machine. How confident are you that you could accurately determine which version of the resume came from which equipment? And do you think it would make any difference on whether or not I get the job?

... There comes a point at which the technological capacity of human accomplishment so thoroughly exceeds the practical application that the manner of fabrication is indiscernible in the final product.
 
Let's not forget the eternal issue here - an "8K" sensor is what you require to max out a "4K" display
 
An 8K full-frame sensor that can be downsampled to a proper 4k image sounds like a great thing to me. That said, until producers are happy to pay for the storage space required to shoot plain old 4k raw on the lowly F5(5)... it's all rather a moot point I think.
 
It's also part of producers being hideously informed. People still baulk at the idea of shooting F65 raw, but they seem perfectly happy to shoot ProRes 4K...
 
JMtheDP said:
Let's not forget the eternal issue here - an "8K" sensor is what you require to max out a "4K" display
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For single chip Bayer, yes. Well aware. But you'll never pry the world away from their vertically shot cat videos on Youtube long enough to explain that to them.

And in the long run, 8k sensors for 4k RGB444 does sound useful. But the data handling today would be a nightmare.
 
I guess the crux of it is that if you are going into ProRes 444 @ 4K (as an example), it doesn't actually make a difference in data size whether that is coming from an upscaled 3.2K sensor or an over-sampled 8K one.

I am keen to see what ARRI do next because if they release a camera with a similar resolution to their Alexa65 in a S35 sized package, they may cut their own 65mm resurgance short and that would be a shame.
 
Viddovation said:
... There comes a point at which the technological capacity of human accomplishment so thoroughly exceeds the practical application that the manner of fabrication is indiscernible in the final product.
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The bottleneck right now rests with the displays (and somewhat with the data delivery) but the history of displays shows a constant improvement. Within half a decade, 8K streaming and personal media players should be well within a reach of an average consumer and, at that point, there will be benefits to having 8K material and no tangible loss to having it downsampled or reframed to 4K.

JMtheDP said:
... I am keen to see what ARRI do next because if they release a camera with a similar resolution to their Alexa65 in a S35 sized package, they may cut their own 65mm resurgance short and that would be a shame.
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Photo-video sensors are increasing in size. Sony wants to move their consumer lines from APS-C to FF because there's little margin left in APS-C and MFT models. And, if consumers are moving up, the pros will have to do likewise. If the budgets are there, the tech will only be happy to accommodate the top tier.

Of course, one could attain a "big budget feature film" look on this very same A7RII too.
 
I would be surprised if "Alexa 2" had a FF sized sensor. To me, it wouldn't make sense - makes much more sense to keep it S35 sized.

There are great technical reasons for going full frame, but there are some major headaches with it too.
 
JMtheDP said:
I am keen to see what ARRI do next because if they release a camera with a similar resolution to their Alexa65 in a S35 sized package, they may cut their own 65mm resurgance short and that would be a shame.
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I would be surprised if the Alexa II is more than 4k on anything but a s35 sensor. I think they will go for extreme dynamic range, greater bit depth and high fps.

They will probably refer critics to the Arri 65 if they are looking for more resolution.

I have yet to encounter a regular Alexa shooter who's clamoring for more resolution. They seem pretty content with what they have and the picture out of the camera speak for itself.
 
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This is the issue - very few people who shoot with the Alexa were ever bothered about it not being 4K. It's a great 2K camera.

However, too often decisions about these things are made by people not ourselves.

I agree, an Alexa S35 with a "genuine" 4K (or slightly oversampled) sensor would make the most sense.

The ALEXA65 after all has no more or less DR than the normal Alexa, because it uses exactly the same sensor - just three of them.
 
makes sense to me, 8K does in no way mean you actually have to shoot 8K....sony has the sensors now, they have everything to make this happen now....yes storage will be a b..ch but like someone here said, 16TB ssd avail be before this thing comes out....and there is no reason to assume that this will have lower DR or low light quality....
i am pretty sure 8K XAVC-I would be manageable and pretty insane to look at....and is perfect for 4K delivery, cropping, moving,...
the real question is price and i would not be surprised if this would be the F65 replacement in the F5 price range...sony can do it
 
I don't believe there will be an Alexa II with a new sensor anytime soon. The 2.8k to 3.4K upgrade the Amira/Alexa had was the upgrade. They were clear a higher resolution will require a larger sensor and went ahead stitching 3 alexa sensors for a 6K 65mm version. That's their high res solution. So they like their sensor, resolution, size, and everyone does too. There won't be an upgrade soon. They just made an Amira, and an Alexa Mini to accompany bigger Alexas as B cam, all points to no upgrade anytime soon. Just updates.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
I don't believe there will be an Alexa II with a new sensor anytime soon. The 2.8k to 3.4K upgrade the Amira/Alexa had was the upgrade. They were clear a higher resolution will require a larger sensor and went ahead stitching 3 alexa sensors for a 6K 65mm version. That's their high res solution. So they like their sensor, resolution, size, and everyone does too. There won't be an upgrade soon. They just made an Amira, and an Alexa Mini to accompany bigger Alexas as B cam, all points to no upgrade anytime soon. Just updates.
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ARRI doesn't stitch sensors... it's just a bigger sensor cut from the CMOS die.

I can see ARRI releasing some kind of VistaVision fullframe sensor in the future. Netflix, hulu don't accept Arri's 3.4k as UHD material
 
Harry Lime said:
Interesting Alexa 65 article over at newsshooter


http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/08/...s-talks-about-resolution-hdr-and-the-arri-65/
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Yes, excellent (Matt, take a bow).

And, Alexa, much like every manufacturer, will try to sell what it has, not what it might have a year from now. Thus, they were against 4K before they were for it.


Paul schefz said:
makes sense to me, 8K does in no way mean you actually have to shoot 8K....sony has the sensors now, they have everything to make this happen now....yes storage will be a b..ch but like someone here said, 16TB ssd avail be before this thing comes out....and there is no reason to assume that this will have lower DR or low light quality....
i am pretty sure 8K XAVC-I would be manageable and pretty insane to look at....and is perfect for 4K delivery, cropping, moving,...
the real question is price and i would not be surprised if this would be the F65 replacement in the F5 price range...sony can do it
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But they need to cover the R&D and, when their major/only competitor rents for $5,000/day, they won't drop too low. My anticipation, F67 (hey, I can name them too) will have a tweaked/modded 50 MPX Medium Format sensor currently found on Pentax 645D and Hasselblad cameras, F-57 will have the tweaked/modded A7RII full frame sensor, both with 8K. F7 will have the same A7RII sensor with an oversampled 15 MPX s35 4K, as in A7RII itself, but with a faster readout, a lot less rolling shutter and a far superior codec.

And Samsung 16 TB SSD's are going into the mass production soon.

Ebrahim Saadawi said:
I don't believe there will be an Alexa II with a new sensor anytime soon...
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IMO, they'll have to eventually - i.e., soon - release a camera that falls into a much, much, much lower price range than the $5,000/day Alexa65 because those 28 pieces (IIRC, they were aiming for 40) basically don't exist for the pro shooters at large.

My hunch is a FF format that will stitch together two, rather than three, original Alexa sensors. Red Weapon is going 8K Vista Vision. Should ARRI release an 8.8 MPX (~ 11 MPX full gate anamorphic) 4K camera, it will be accepted eagerly for the high end feature and film production without the $150,000,000 budgets.
 
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DLD said:
Yes, excellent (Matt, take a bow). And, Alexa, much like every manufacturer, will try to sell what it has, not what it might have a year from now. Thus, they was against 4K before they were for it.
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If you are implying that Arri flip flopped on how much resolution they feel is necessary, then that really isn't an accurate assessment. Arri still is at 3.2k for S35. The Alexa 65 is 6k on a 65mm format sensor and the pixel density hasn't changed from the s35 model. It's just a bigger sensor made from the same wafer as the S35 version. It's not like they went 65mm and suddenly doubled the pixel density.

I'm guessing that some day down the road, when they do release an Alexa II they will go from 3.2k to 4k (S35) just to satisfy the bureaucrats and spec sheet jockeys at companies like Netflix etc.


IMO, they'll have to eventually - i.e., soon - release a camera that falls into a much, much, much lower price range than the $5,000/day Alexa65 because those 28 pieces (IIRC, they were aiming for 40) basically don't exist for the pro shooters at large.
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Let's say a functional Arri 65 package is $8,000 - 10,000 per day. Compared to the cost of shooting actual 65mm film it's probably about the same (depending on your shooting ratio) or in some circumstances a bargain.

My hunch is a FF format that will stitch together two, rather than three, original Alexa sensors.
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I doubt that they would replace s35 with Vista Vision. If Arri went VV they would need an entire new lens line up etc. FF also has an entirely different aesthetic than s35 and in many ways is more difficult and expensive for a production to deal with. Your average movie has little to gain from shooting VV and it's more trouble for them than it's worth.


Red Weapon is going 8K Vista Vision. Should ARRI release an 8.8 MPX (~ 11 MPX full gate anamorphic) 4K camera, it will be accepted eagerly for the high end feature and film production without the $150,000,000 budgets.
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I don't think Arri really sees themselves in a race with RED, where they have to meet them spec sheet to spec sheet. It's obvious that the companies are operating on two very different philosophies.
 
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DLD said:
But they need to cover the R&D and, when their major/only competitor rents for $5,000/day, they won't drop too low. My anticipation, F67 (hey, I can name them too) will have a tweaked/modded 50 MPX Medium Format sensor currently found on Pentax 645D and Hasselblad cameras, F-57 will have the tweaked/modded A7RII full frame sensor, both with 8K. F7 will have the same A7RII sensor with an oversampled 15 MPX s35 4K, as in A7RII itself, but with a faster readout, a lot less rolling shutter and a far superior codec.

And Samsung 16 TB SSD's are going into the mass production soon.
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the sony 50mpix MF sensor can't do video and i doubt it will ever be used in any other camera, not really sure they are even working in that direction (larger sensor) for the still market...the whole A7 mirrorless line is marketed against DSLR because of its smaller size and realistically that 50mpix sensor probably can't even keep up in DR and iso with the new smaller sensor of the A7rII....and then there is the lens issue...
price wise i think things will change quite a bit next year....the new BM chip looks very promising (whenever it comes out) and 4.6 k with 15 stops DR raw for 5000$ WILL shake things up...it will eat into the arri and especially the red market (if it does deliver close to what it promises).....either way, sony can sell cameras cheaper then anyone else because they have all the parts already and quite a base to build on....F5, F55, FS7....
again: if the BM delivers, it will be hard for anyone to justify charging 50K and forget about 5K/day rentals....
 
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