Sony 8K CineAlta rumor
- Thread starter BlackWolf
- Start date
Ya, but with only 28 of them out there, it's pretty much a non-issue for anyone aside of the frequent Oscar nominees. I'd even assume that ARRI isn't charging Lubezki a full pop either. Alexa65 is, at the moment, more of a statement camera, a Porsche 959 of the image acquisition industry.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
More insight please James?
It's understandable. Shooting on a D-Bolex is marginally cheaper than s16 film, shooting an f35/65 is a lot cheaper than 35mm film, so shooting alexa65 must be a hell lot cheaper than 65mm film, same with a Vistavision red vs VistaVision Film (good luck finding that).
But aside from cost, I wonder how easier/harder it is to find a 65mm package to shoot on now Vs. an alexa65, which is only 28 units and 20+ are already taken for months and months, even perhaps years for major productions. Do they still make 65mm/large format film?
The cameras are available for little money here somewhere I am sure, just the film I am wondering about. I'd love to shoot 65mm one day,
I still remember Lawrence of Arabia as my first and only movie where I had my mouth wide open just due to the depth and aesthetic of large format and 200/400mm lenses used for wide vistas, what a magical look. Not just wides though, close-ups of people had a strong, shock appeal. I hope companies start offering 65mm solutions soon (sony?) aside from the alexa65 system that I'll be able to touch with a 10-feet clown pole.
JMtheDP
Veteran
ARRI UK said the ALEXA65 basic package goes out for around £8,000 a day or £40,000 a week - no discounts. It's booked solid for the next year.
Basically no one in the UK has a 65mm camera, Tarantino effectively had the entire world's working 65mm (non-IMAX) inventory on H8. Most of them were in mothballs, although they do occasionally appear. I have touched a 765, once - it was being prepped for a commercial.
i have not yet had a definitive figure but I have had quotes in the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars to process a reel of 65mm. To my knowledge there is only one lab in the world which can handle it, there are none left in Europe that I know of. There used to be one in Germany.
Basically no one in the UK has a 65mm camera, Tarantino effectively had the entire world's working 65mm (non-IMAX) inventory on H8. Most of them were in mothballs, although they do occasionally appear. I have touched a 765, once - it was being prepped for a commercial.
i have not yet had a definitive figure but I have had quotes in the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars to process a reel of 65mm. To my knowledge there is only one lab in the world which can handle it, there are none left in Europe that I know of. There used to be one in Germany.
Sony's medium format sensor can indeed do video. The Pentax 645Z has video functionality.
However, its video is quite meh blah... likely let down on the processing side by Pentax, and this could be fixed by Sony in a F65 mk2
Harry Lime
Well-known member
Here are some prices.
A 1000ft (circa 10 min) can of Kodak Vision3 5219 (35mm) goes for $830 at Film Emporium. That's 35mm.
Now add developing and scanning.
65mm is special order so we can probably double the cost per 1000ft. So we are looking at ~$1700 per 1000ft load. Add developing and scanning. There aren't a lot of labs left that can develop 65mm, so that gets complicated and you may have to factor in shipping costs. Then you need to find a facility that can scan 65mm. I believe Cinelicious in Hollywood or Fotokem can handle 65mm.
The production can probably negotiate a bulk rate with Kodak, since they are buying hundreds of thousands if not a million feet. But still if we are talking $1700 per 10 min load, plus shipping, developing and scanning the Arri 65 suddenly looks like a bargain.
I have no idea how they managed to shoot The Master on 65mm with a $35 million budget, but obviously a large percentage of that went into it.
The last 65mm show I worked on was for a theme park ride at Universal. It was a stereo ride and they had two old 65mm cameras bolted into a stereo rig the size of a fridge. The contraption weighed a few hundred pounds. I can't remember if they were Mitchell or Panavision bodies. One of them was painted white, so it may have been a ex-military Mitchell. A camera assistant told me that one of them had shot on Lawrence, but I'm not sure if I believe him, because I'm pretty sure Freddie Young shot with Panavision. Dailies were mind boggling. We had them in an aircraft hanger in Burbank and the screen sat flush on the floor. Everything was projected to life size and stereo with two giant synchronized film projectors. It felt like you could get up from your seat and walk straight into one of the future war battle scenes.
A 1000ft (circa 10 min) can of Kodak Vision3 5219 (35mm) goes for $830 at Film Emporium. That's 35mm.
Now add developing and scanning.
65mm is special order so we can probably double the cost per 1000ft. So we are looking at ~$1700 per 1000ft load. Add developing and scanning. There aren't a lot of labs left that can develop 65mm, so that gets complicated and you may have to factor in shipping costs. Then you need to find a facility that can scan 65mm. I believe Cinelicious in Hollywood or Fotokem can handle 65mm.
The production can probably negotiate a bulk rate with Kodak, since they are buying hundreds of thousands if not a million feet. But still if we are talking $1700 per 10 min load, plus shipping, developing and scanning the Arri 65 suddenly looks like a bargain.
I have no idea how they managed to shoot The Master on 65mm with a $35 million budget, but obviously a large percentage of that went into it.
The last 65mm show I worked on was for a theme park ride at Universal. It was a stereo ride and they had two old 65mm cameras bolted into a stereo rig the size of a fridge. The contraption weighed a few hundred pounds. I can't remember if they were Mitchell or Panavision bodies. One of them was painted white, so it may have been a ex-military Mitchell. A camera assistant told me that one of them had shot on Lawrence, but I'm not sure if I believe him, because I'm pretty sure Freddie Young shot with Panavision. Dailies were mind boggling. We had them in an aircraft hanger in Burbank and the screen sat flush on the floor. Everything was projected to life size and stereo with two giant synchronized film projectors. It felt like you could get up from your seat and walk straight into one of the future war battle scenes.
JMtheDP
Veteran
65mm will be a lot more than double the cost of 35mm. It's not just a case of making it twice as wide, all 65mm is going to be custom order so a minimum order must be made (easy for a feature) but the real kicker is you cannot really sell any of the leftovers - plenty of people out there will have 35mm short ends... 65mm, not happening.
I looked into getting a couple of rolls left over from MI5 and shooting 65mm but the costs I was being quoted for processing were insane.
James
I looked into getting a couple of rolls left over from MI5 and shooting 65mm but the costs I was being quoted for processing were insane.
James
Harry Lime
Well-known member
And there you go. I was being conservative with the numbers. If you compare the price jump of 16mm to 35mm it's more than double, more like triple. 35 to 65 has to be even worse, because it's a special order item. I didn't even think of the short ends....
Jim Arthurs
Well-known member
Actually, it's very easy to find. It's just normal 35mm motion picture film... run through the VistaVision camera sideways.
Regards
Harry Lime
Well-known member
japanicjess
Member
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Publications/InCamera/Creating_Dreams_for_Arcade_Fire_s_Afterlife.htm
This interview reads like they may have gotten a deal from Cinelicious for their processing of 65mm film because they were interested in the project, also just an interesting read and a great music vid
This interview reads like they may have gotten a deal from Cinelicious for their processing of 65mm film because they were interested in the project, also just an interesting read and a great music vid
I am taking his claim with a similar grain. It's four years old. Canon has been hinting at C500 MK II by the NAB'2016 and nowadays, even the run&gun types like DVX200 ($4,200) and a consumer level A7RII ($3,200) will oversample into 4K, on paper outperforming the former pro units (had it not been for the codec). And Sony has recently been the firstest with the mostest anyway.
JMtheDP
Veteran
It is four years old, but the F35 (if we include the Genesis) had a run of nearly eight years.
My personal prediction is an announcement next year, with units shipping 2017. Maybe.
Given what I know of Sony though, the people who build these things are incredibly secretive about them even within the company - ie. I know people who have seen a product their company is making only a week or so before the public does.
What I would like to see is a sensor with the resolution and capability of the F65's, but with a natively global shutter. That would be a fair achievement.
My personal prediction is an announcement next year, with units shipping 2017. Maybe.
Given what I know of Sony though, the people who build these things are incredibly secretive about them even within the company - ie. I know people who have seen a product their company is making only a week or so before the public does.
What I would like to see is a sensor with the resolution and capability of the F65's, but with a natively global shutter. That would be a fair achievement.
Paul schefz
Well-known member
i also spoke with someone who has pretty good information and he said that sony is very happy with the way the existing cameras are selling and working in the field, they are working on upgrading existing cameras (but obviously software only, so not much there) but no major release in the next at least year....does not mean we might not have an announcement in 2016 but anything shipping is very doubtful....this guy has pretty good info, just came back from japan....
he (and pretty much everybody on the web) also said that sony is expanding their sensor business (which is already miles ahed of everybody else) and cutting other stuff (i have no clue what that is but i have no clue about all the other things sony dabbles in), their still cameras are a major focus and in general they are concentrating on cameras and lenses (incl still and motion).....
sony is a huge company and he also mentioned that there are still problems with communication within the company....they might have all the tech to put an incredible thing together but that does not mean it can pass through all the meetings.....but they are working not hat as well....
regardless of what info is coming out or what who says, sony is THE player in image capture right now....and they are only really getting started....next iPhone (coming out in 2 weeks?) is supposed to have a sony sensor...that pretty much puts another 10mill sony capturing devices in the market waiting a couple of months....we can talk about red and arri but the latest A7rII shows what can be done when you have that huge R&D behind a product....mass production is a HUGE factor when it comes to making and selling sensors.....it will get harder and harder to come up with the highest end product (arri, red) when the low end just keeps stepping up the quality....
he (and pretty much everybody on the web) also said that sony is expanding their sensor business (which is already miles ahed of everybody else) and cutting other stuff (i have no clue what that is but i have no clue about all the other things sony dabbles in), their still cameras are a major focus and in general they are concentrating on cameras and lenses (incl still and motion).....
sony is a huge company and he also mentioned that there are still problems with communication within the company....they might have all the tech to put an incredible thing together but that does not mean it can pass through all the meetings.....but they are working not hat as well....
regardless of what info is coming out or what who says, sony is THE player in image capture right now....and they are only really getting started....next iPhone (coming out in 2 weeks?) is supposed to have a sony sensor...that pretty much puts another 10mill sony capturing devices in the market waiting a couple of months....we can talk about red and arri but the latest A7rII shows what can be done when you have that huge R&D behind a product....mass production is a HUGE factor when it comes to making and selling sensors.....it will get harder and harder to come up with the highest end product (arri, red) when the low end just keeps stepping up the quality....
JMtheDP
Veteran
To my knowledge Sony are the only camera maker (perhaps except Panasonic?) who make their own chips. This gives them a huge advantage.
Communication as Paul says is key - both between Sony & end users and within the company. Sony Semi-conductor and Sony Camera design are basically not related at all. It's a sad state of affairs but these things happen when you wind up with such a massive company.
Also, we might think that the next F65 is super-important, but for Sony as a company I can understand them being a little reserved with a product that will cost a bomb to design and shift, maybe, a thousand units?
We have to remember the ALEXA is the main product ARRI make (they do not manufacture any lenses to my knowledge) but the F5/55/65 are a tiny part of "Sony" - for better and worse.
Communication as Paul says is key - both between Sony & end users and within the company. Sony Semi-conductor and Sony Camera design are basically not related at all. It's a sad state of affairs but these things happen when you wind up with such a massive company.
Also, we might think that the next F65 is super-important, but for Sony as a company I can understand them being a little reserved with a product that will cost a bomb to design and shift, maybe, a thousand units?
We have to remember the ALEXA is the main product ARRI make (they do not manufacture any lenses to my knowledge) but the F5/55/65 are a tiny part of "Sony" - for better and worse.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
Are there any annoyances with the current mechanical shutter that would it a worthy upgrade if sensor capability is the same? Audible sound maybe?
Paul schefz
Well-known member
that is the key here....the biggest issue might actually be that making a super high end (because we are not even talking about high end anymore, the FS7 is as high in terms of market as you can get) does not even provide a marketing boost (street cred with maybe 1000 or even 10000 industry people does not count)....nobody knows or cares what camera the latest movie was hot on....people did not know which film stock and they don't know which camera.....that is a fact....
the crazy part in all this is that sony not only has the camera business the sensor business, the semi conductor business...they also have a huge studio business, which for the most part uses camera other then sony....