So Who is the XL-H1 aimed at??

M

mmm

Veteran
So Who is the XL-H1 aimed at??

Canon XLs have always been a bit of Indie filmmaking camera, but the XL-H1 is $9000, a lot for Indie filmmakers.

Also why use interlaced CCDs if your market is mainly progressive? Maybe they realised they could achieve an effect as good as 24p/25p/30p with interlaced chips.

Then there is the HD-SDI output - not a typical indie tool.

So you would think Canon is moving away from the Indie filmmaker, BUT then they add a viewfinder flip mode to make life easier when using lens adapters like the Mini35. This feature is pure Indie, in fact, they are the only manufacturer to have listened to this regular Indie request - even Panasonic has ignored it on the HVX apparently.

So is Canon just trying to please everyone, or is this still an Indie XL series camera and there was a sale going on HD-SDI interfaces and they thought what the hell? Will this camera be a jack of all trades?
 
I think just like with Panasonic, you are going to start to see more cameras at higher prices. It started as a consumer industry. If it was pro it cost 40 times more at one point. But the differences were substantial. Then folks wanted more and the low end cameras started to see more pro features added. The first generation cams gave a lot for the buck (and they were considered pretty expensive) but folks keep asking for more. And more means more cost and so you are starting to see a new generation of cameras that cost more but then again give folks what they have been asking for.

The HVX is the next generation of the DVX and because of the added features raised the price substantially. And the H1 is the next generation of the XL2 and it too costs more. I think Canons addition of many ways of interconnection talks to folks that want to record with multiple cameras. Before all one could do was shoot with multiple cameras and deal with sound and sync problems later. Now I can record a concert in HD and know that all the cameras are properly connected.

I think Panasonic looked at the DVX and thought of what would make it an HD camera, not considering as much outside of what they had a success with. Canon seems to me to have looked outside of what they had, looking a bit broader and decided in some ways to be what you said, a jack of all trades. As for who it's for? I think the answer is no different than asking who is the XL2 or DVX for. It's all about what feels better for you. Some folks will never realize the advantage of being able to use various lenses or simply don't need to. Some folks like news people might look at P2 as something they want. Already the only real saturation for P2 today is news so maybe this is a low end news camera. Or maybe Panasonic thinks P2 is viable outside of news. Time will tell.

I think because of the price point, the Canon version is for a slightly different crowd than the HVX. As for the interlaced question, who says that their market is progressive? It's still very much an interlaced world. Sony knew that and made a segmented frame system. It will take some time before progressive TV really is progressive TV. In the mean time we have methods that still work in today's atmosphere but have potential later.

As I said someone who does design work for Canon made it clear to me that they like to sit on the sideline and watch what develops then fill in the blanks where others don't . I think they did that offering such things as the flip mode, etc. I haven't mentioned Sony because I think their entry is the weakest of all. But in the end there is room for all.
 
mmm said:
... but the XL H1 is $9000, a lot for Indie filmmakers.
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Depends on which "indie" filmmakers you're talking to. For independents coming up from the DV world, it's expensive, for independents who are coming down from the Film world, it's cheap.

I don't think the H1 is aimed directly at the average DVX/GL/VX user, we'll have to wait for the GL3 for that. But in that group, it's probably aimed at DVX users more than other camcorder users.

That's not to say that the H1 isn't enticing for independent DV filmmakers, it's just not aimed "directly" at their market.
 
I think MMMMs question is a good one and I ask the same thing.

Some people are making mostly "event" work, concerts, news casts, documentaries, etc. That looks for certain things in a camera.

Others (like me) are looking for the features more closely associated to film cameras to make "movies". That requires other things such as Depth Of Field variation, variable frame rates, etc.

There are over lapping factors to consider for both like battery life, recording options and cost, etc. I may be wrong, but if things are as they are printed, the HVX seems to be the best buck for the indie filmmaker (non-documentary) as it has a nice price, variable frames, the ability to use the min 35 and a tape or hardware recording option. That is why it is winning me as the "best" camera for what I do.

It has cons, such as the battery life and the inability to shoot HD on tape. I also don't like the look and physical function of it. I hope the rumors of variable frames for the Canon are true as that may hedge me to it as I love the look and lens variation as well as the HD to tape.

(I may be mistaken on some of my deductions above in terms of camera functions but I'm sure they'll be corrected).

So, those taken into consideration...is the Canon H1 geared up more for indie films or event style work?
 
Walter_Graff said:
Some folks like news people might look at P2 as something they want. Already the only real saturation for P2 today is news so maybe this is a low end news camera. Or maybe Panasonic thinks P2 is viable outside of news. Time will tell.
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I couldn't agree more with this. Even the SDX800's P2 brochure list the HVX200 as a hand held newsgathering camera for use in a P2 news gathering organization. Take a look at the workflow. This is P2 in a nutshell:

p2workflow.png


This of course is a full blown P2 news workflow. Take a close look at it, the data archive server and the material server are needed as well as a laptop and possibly the P2 deck. It's a very nice system but it cost a lot.




On the other hand there is the HDV workflow which would be JVC or H1 or Z1
hdvworkflow.png

Instead it provides a built in archive method via the delivery media. Click here to view all of the HDV workflows (including filmout) designed by JVC. It is on the left hand side of the page under "applications". These flows would be common to all HDV devices.
 
SquidLips said:
It has cons, such as the battery life
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A con? Are you confusing the HD100 with the HVX? The HD100 has limited battery life (about 30 minutes per battery) but the HVX should have massive battery life -- it should run for over five hours on a single battery.
and the inability to shoot HD on tape.
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That can be a plus or a minus, depending on what your satisfaction level is with HD on tape. If you think HDV is satisfactory, then you could view the HVX's inability to record HDV as a con. If you think that HD on tape is only satisfactory when it's recorded at HDCAM or DVCPRO-HD quality, then I don't see how you could view this as a con. Plus, tape is a miserable format to shoot on, and is gasping at its last legs. Tapeless is here now, and is far superior. We're now seeing cameras from every major manufacturer offering a tapeless solution, so I think being tied to a tape format is a huge drawback. Spend 10 minutes with any tapeless recording system (whether XDCAM, XDCAM HD, P2, FireStore, Infinity, Everio, etc) and you won't want to ever scan and digitize a tape again.

I also don't like the look and physical function of it.
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Y'know, a lot of people seem turned off by that, which is kind of funny, I think Panasonic probably chose that form factor specifically because it looks like a continuation of the DVX, which has got to be Panasonic's biggest-selling, most popular camera of all time. So I'm sure they felt that giving the customer a high-def DVX would be the best possible choice... I guess when you get around the $6,000 price tag, people don't necessarily want to see the handheld form factor. Yet the Z1 uses the same form factor, and I haven't heard anyone say "boy, I'd love a Sony Z1 but just can't stand that handheld shape..."

I'd love to see a bigger, 4-XLR, shoulder-mount, interchangeable-lens version too. Probably add three or four thousand dollars to the cost, but I think that'd be a dynamite camera. Even if it was $3000 more, that'd only bring it up to the cost level of the XL H1...

I hope the rumors of variable frames for the Canon are true
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What rumors? There have been no rumors that I have heard. The Canon is 60i, 24F, 30F. That's it. Unless you upgrade it to dual-standard, at which point you'd get 50i and 25F added. There are no variable frame rates, and it would be impossible to add variable frame rates to that camera. Besides, they've already announced the specifications -- there's nothing held back. What you read about is what you get -- how could there be rumors about variable frame rates?

So, those taken into consideration...is the Canon H1 geared up more for indie films or event style work?
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How to answer this... well, let's try it this way: the unique features of the Canon are geared more towards live event coverage. The features that the Canon offers, that the other cameras don't, are more suitable for doing studio/event coverage. Or, put another way, the things you're paying more for are only really applicable to studio & event coverage. The ideal usage of its capabilities would be in live switching environments; that's where Canon's "Unique Selling Points" are.

That doesn't mean that's where it'll stay though. If "24F" proves in field testing (not in marketing literature or in salesmen's discussions, but actual field testing) to be as good as 24P, then obviously that will pique filmmaker's interests as well: 1080/24p is the "holy grail" for indie filmmakers. Interchangeable lenses will remain a nearly irrelevant feature until they produce some lenses that can interchange with it; JVC's approach is unquestionably superior in this regard (the JVC uses a slightly more common mount, they've already announced a lens that can be interchanged with it, and they're producing at least two lens mount adapters to let you use other lenses; the Canon apparently will not be able to use those type of lenses because the camera's handgrip will conflict, I don't know exactly but I believe that's what I read from Chris Hurd on DVInfo.net). So the XL H1's lens interchangeability may be limited to Canon-produced lenses, and none are yet announced so it may be a while before any are produced.

It all comes down to: what are you willing to compromise on? Assuming the chips and the DSP and the lens are roughly equivalent (which is a wild assumption, of course) then the XL H1's internal recording format to tape is vastly inferior to the HVX's, and its potential for recording off-camera is notably superior to the HVX's (HD-SDI vs. analog component), but any method of recording off-camera is going to be expensive and cumbersome, except the FireStore -- and there the HVX is vastly superior, recording DVCPRO-HD to the FireStore instead of HDV from the Canon. The HVX is a much more flexible camera in its recording capability (1080, 720, DVCPRO50, and variable frame rates), the XL H1 has the potential to be expanded more (interchangeable lenses, interchangeable viewfinder).

In the end, one should wait for the footage before getting too invested in one system or the other. If you need the unique selling points of the Canon, then your decision's already made. If either camera can work for you, then let's look to the footage for making a decision.
 
That was well done Barry....and as I stated above, any errors in my observations (battery life) would be corrected.

Buta s for the Canon frame rate rumors...they were actually on tis board. I recently looked the camera over on a website elsewhere and saw nothing listed so called them "rumors". I can only assume it would be announced at this stage, but then again...the HVX has not posted the exact frame rates theirs is capable of.

The look of the HVX again is a personal thing though I'm sure some love it. I just personally think the design of the Canon looks much more attractive and functionally more like the film cameras I am used to. Again, eye of the beholder....

But, I will wait until the hVX footage is available but you Barry have once again pointed to me that the Panny seems to be the indie filmmakers best friend. I will await for the footage with anticipation....
 
Barry_Green said:
...1080/24p is the "holy grail" for indie filmmakers.
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I don't agree with that.

Indie filmmakers are in the search for "filmlook on the cheap." That is the true grail... without meaning so sound like a Monty Python quote.

1080p24 is one attempt at that. If you are trying to copy 1080p24, you are imitating an imitation.
 
Walter Graff said:
Some folks like news people might look at P2 as something they want. Already the only real saturation for P2 today is news so maybe this is a low end news camera.
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stephenlnoe said:
I couldn't agree more with this. Even the SDX800's P2 brochure list the HVX200 as a hand held newsgathering camera for use in a P2 news gathering organization.
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Actually, Panasonic blew it with P2 for the newsgathering market. NBC and CBS are converting all net news and O&O (owned and operated) affiliate ENG operations to XDCAM. ABC is converting all their O&Os to XDCAM also. Sony's XDCAM is fast becoming the new "Betacam" of ENG. Our own internal engineering/management discussions regarding Panasonic's P2 format introduction at NAB2004 mainly consisted of comments like, "Boy, we would lose a LOT of those cards."
 
NBCshooter said:
Actually, not quite. Panasonic blew it with P2 for the newsgathering market. NBC and CBS are converting all net news and O&O (owned and operated) affiliate ENG operations to XDCAM. ABC is converting all their O&Os to XDCAM also. Sony's XDCAM is fast becoming the new "Betacam" of ENG.
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Just out of curiosity, can you explain how they "blew it?" I know nothing about news acquisition, just interested in why you say that (especially seeing that your name is NBCshooter).

P.S. - Your "mobil station" clip was my main inspiration for getting a DVX eons ago... just thought I'd let you know that I really appreciated it!
 
Haakon said:
Just out of curiosity, can you explain how they "blew it?" I know nothing about news acquisition, just interested in why you say that (especially seeing that your name is NBCshooter).

P.S. - Your "mobil station" clip was my main inspiration for getting a DVX eons ago... just thought I'd let you know that I really appreciated it!
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Hey, thanks! That's always so funny to hear from people who've seen that clip! Anyway, Panasonic "blew it" in the manner that they were unable to sell it to any major news organization. And my guess as to why would be the same reason we didn't buy into it--high storage costs (yeah, yeah, I know they're rewritable). But we would need a LOT of those cards, and we would also LOSE a LOT of those cards. Panasonic put a lot of eggs in their "P2 basket" and lost out to XDCAM for the ENG market. Not that the technology or product concept isn't good--it just isn't what the network news market wanted.

30-minute BetacamSP tape . . . . $5 (yup, that's what we pay, and it's Sony)
45-minute XDCAM disc . . . . . . . $30
4GB P2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$2,000

Which media would you rather lose?
 
Hi-jack away, it is really interesting what you are saying.

Maybe the thread can branch into, who the hell is P2 aimed at???? New thread maybe me thinks!
 
I do not claim to know what Canon is thinking, but looking at this camera, I get the feeling that alot of what they are doing is kinda like Kevin Costner in Field of dreams. "If I build it they will come". I think that the unique capabilities of this camera will create its own niche. I would be willing to bet thou that this camera will become the King of Cable Access in the next few years.
 
Pet peeve: Field of Dreams never said "If you build it, they will come." That line has been hijacked and turned into something it never was; people use it as justification for marketing ideas and such, and it's all a bogus misconception.

The line was: "If you build it, HE will come." Meaning Kevin's father. It had nothing to do with attracting a crowd.
 
Off Topic:
"If you build it, they will come"

That has been used for centuries about building churches and I think even Henry Ford used the same line to justify building the Model T. Except in his case I think it was "If you build it, they'll buy it" (or something of that nature).



On Topic:

P2 is OK if you're prepared for the workflow, which cost $$$$. Face it, nobody wants to loose their hard earned footage, so the workflow I posted is accurate to ensure retention of data. It's a wakup call for people who want to cruise around with a 4 hour firestore and think they've got all they need. This is simply not the case. You have to dump the firestore again and again, to where? The Archive. The Archive server is the missing piece along with the Material server if you don't want to put the index Dbase on your NLE.

Our group knows this workflow very well and we came to the same conclusion as NBC shooter's group. It cost too much bread.... Whether data's on tape or in P2 Or XDCam it's all digital. The price of tape is the time it takes to capture it and a possible dropout. They all carry the same ditial data (101010101010).

Speaking of capture time, most dedicated tape capture programs will capture index data @ 12X speed so a 60 minute tape can be indexed in 5 minutes. They can also batch capture from index without RW/FF jog.
 
stephenlnoe said:
Off Topic:
P2 is OK if you're prepared for the workflow, which cost $$$$.
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I don't know why I keep hearing this... obviously everyone that posts here has a computer and you'd need one to edit with regardless of what workflow you choose. So that's not an "additional cost" of P2. That being said, in a barebones setup, all you need is the HVX and one P2 card and you're good to go. You can transfer the data to a computer via firewire, straight from the card, in faster than realtime, and you can archive on a DL disc that costs 3 dollars. You don't need firestore at all, and after the initial investment of the camera, it's essentially free. The discs you back up to cost less than the DV tapes you'd be buying for whatever HDV solution the alternative presents. You spend $6K on the camera and $2K on the P2 card, and you're out the door. No extra costs. The only thing that NBCshooter has on the arguement is that if you lose a card, you've lost a crapload of money. True. Better keep track of your card.
 
Haakon said:
I don't know why I keep hearing this... obviously everyone that posts here has a computer and you'd need one to edit with regardless of what workflow you choose. So that's not an "additional cost" of P2.
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AHHHHH!!!! It's about time someone said that! Very true. The only expense is larger Hard Disks. And those are really getting cheap. You can already buy a terabyte for $900 from LaCie, or much cheaper if you build it yourself.

That being said, in a barebones setup, all you need is the HVX and one P2 card and you're good to go. You can transfer the data to a computer via firewire, straight from the card, in faster than realtime, and you can archive on a DL disc that costs 3 dollars. You don't need firestore at all, and after the initial investment of the camera, it's essentially free. The discs you back up to cost less than the DV tapes you'd be buying for whatever HDV solution the alternative presents. You spend $6K on the camera and $2K on the P2 card, and you're out the door. No extra costs.
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Heck, if you're doing narrative filmmaking, all you need is one 4GB P2 card. Shouldn't cost more than $1000 by the time the HVX is around... Rarely will anyone need a shot that lasts more than four minutes.

The only thing that NBCshooter has on the arguement is that if you lose a card, you've lost a crapload of money. True. Better keep track of your card.
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But you don't even have to take the card out of the HVX! Dump via USB2 to an external hard disk, and you're set. The P2 card remains in the camera the whole time.
 
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