stephenlnoe
Well-known member
Uhh... Did you two gents take a look at the workflow I posted above? Your ideas will work if you're willing to delete your files. If you want to keep the content then start looking for an archive method.
So Who is the XL-H1 aimed at??
- Thread starter mmm
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Michael Wisniewski
Member
Re: P2 cards & archiving
It's one of those weird twilight zone scenarios, but I can imagine people archiving their P2 video onto a PC tape backup.
P2 > Hard Disk > Edit > Tape Backup ... when I think about it that way it seems a little convoluted.
It's one of those weird twilight zone scenarios, but I can imagine people archiving their P2 video onto a PC tape backup.
P2 > Hard Disk > Edit > Tape Backup ... when I think about it that way it seems a little convoluted.
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
"Actually, Panasonic blew it with P2 for the newsgathering market. NBC and CBS are converting all net news and O&O (owned and operated) affiliate ENG operations to XDCAM. ABC is converting all their O&Os to XDCAM also. Sony's XDCAM is fast becoming the new "Betacam" of ENG. Our own internal engineering/management discussions regarding Panasonic's P2 format introduction at NAB2004 mainly consisted of comments like, "Boy, we would lose a LOT of those cards."
Yes they sure did. But outside of them loosing the battle they did get a bit of saturation with P2 in the news industry but as I said, that's about all they did. A number of station groups bought into the P2 idea, but Panasonic is not strong on the marketing end and really has little to barter as does Sony so they lost their chance with the networks. Sony made some promises five years ago that kept NBC interested and sold CBS in the last year. I said from day one that P2 would be a failure professionally (think about it as the next M2) and I also predict it will be a disaster on the prosumer level. I got a chance to work with the Sony system and I have to say I like it.
Yes they sure did. But outside of them loosing the battle they did get a bit of saturation with P2 in the news industry but as I said, that's about all they did. A number of station groups bought into the P2 idea, but Panasonic is not strong on the marketing end and really has little to barter as does Sony so they lost their chance with the networks. Sony made some promises five years ago that kept NBC interested and sold CBS in the last year. I said from day one that P2 would be a failure professionally (think about it as the next M2) and I also predict it will be a disaster on the prosumer level. I got a chance to work with the Sony system and I have to say I like it.
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Yes. After re-reading your post, I see that your statement is probably correct when read in context. A few local news stations are probably the only segment of the market that have embraced the P2 strategy.Walter_Graff said:
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Actually, this brings up an ADVANTAGE of P2 over XDCAM (at this point). Data on P2 media is IMMEDIATELY usable, whereas the XDCAM datastream (although IP-addressable) is not. We currently have one pilot PDW-530 in-house, and the workflow is (for shoots that are NOT fed back via microwave): Shoot XDCAM -> put XDCAM disc in deck -> DIGITIZE (transcode to Avid).stephenlnoe said:
IMO, Sony has over-marketed the "proxy" video feature of XDCAM. Proxy video is absolutely USELESS, to a daily news magazine show which must feed FULL-RES footage via microwave to waiting Avid editors, while they fiendishly cut the story to make a 1:00PM east coast network feed. No time in our workfow for ANY "pretend" cutting.
Again, SORRY FOR THE OFF-TOPIC, WANDERING POSTS . . .
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Walter_Graff said:
Just for clarification, do you lump the HVX in with that? Or do you think the HVX will find a market in spite of P2's potential failure?
Many people seem excited about the prospect of using the upcoming Firestore drive with the HVX (and whatever other 3rd party solutions come to market). I would have a hard time believing that the HVX itself will flop completely... but then again the Segway had a lot of anticipation and hype surrounding it's release as well.
By the way....(showing my ignorance now).... what is M2? Obviously it was an utter failure, which is why I've never heard of it.
Yes, you will need an archive method. Funny enough, my post already mentioned that! :thumbsup:stephenlnoe said:
You can use hard disks or optical discs or even go back to tape if you so desire. I like the optical disc method myself; it's cheap, readily available, and already suited for 1:1 card backups. By the time the bigger cards get out there, we'll have Blu-Ray or HD-DVD at our disposal and that will end the argument once and for all. At any rate, my specific reply to your post was that embracing a P2 workflow doesn't require any extra expense; in fact it can save you oodles. Whether or not you like the workflow is irrelevant.
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
"Just for clarification, do you lump the HVX in with that? Or do you think the HVX will find a market in spite of P2's potential failure?"
Keep reading...
"Many people seem excited about the prospect of using the upcoming Firestore drive with the HVX (and whatever other 3rd party solutions come to market). I would have a hard time believing that the HVX itself will flop completely... but then again the Segway had a lot of anticipation and hype surrounding it's release as well."
It already is. you just proved it. You said many people are excited about using it with Firestore. That means on it's own it isn't valid. So folks have to look at what is available and say do I want to buy something that I "think" I also need to buy other devices to make it work properly, or do I want to buy something that offers me what I am used to (having what I consider sufficient recording time) without additional cost. P2 is a fun idea and some think it's cool to plug in cards, but as a whole I think it will not be a success. They will not sell enough nor find a method of mass producing cards at reasonable prices.
Keep reading...
"Many people seem excited about the prospect of using the upcoming Firestore drive with the HVX (and whatever other 3rd party solutions come to market). I would have a hard time believing that the HVX itself will flop completely... but then again the Segway had a lot of anticipation and hype surrounding it's release as well."
It already is. you just proved it. You said many people are excited about using it with Firestore. That means on it's own it isn't valid. So folks have to look at what is available and say do I want to buy something that I "think" I also need to buy other devices to make it work properly, or do I want to buy something that offers me what I am used to (having what I consider sufficient recording time) without additional cost. P2 is a fun idea and some think it's cool to plug in cards, but as a whole I think it will not be a success. They will not sell enough nor find a method of mass producing cards at reasonable prices.
Antoine_Fabi
Well-known member
I personally would have never looked at the HVX200/P2 alone.
It just doesn't fit in my personal workflow, even if i like Panasonic very much.
BUT
The Firestore will give the HVX portability, lightweight, convenience, a cost efficient solution. That's great !
If it works with the XLH1, then again, it's great !
People will judge the camcorder (HVX200, XLH1, HD100) for it's camera section and ergonomy and personal preference.
It seems ( IF I UNDERTAND CORRECTLY) that we will be able to capture in many available formats.
Do i understand correctly ?
It just doesn't fit in my personal workflow, even if i like Panasonic very much.
BUT
The Firestore will give the HVX portability, lightweight, convenience, a cost efficient solution. That's great !
If it works with the XLH1, then again, it's great !
People will judge the camcorder (HVX200, XLH1, HD100) for it's camera section and ergonomy and personal preference.
It seems ( IF I UNDERTAND CORRECTLY) that we will be able to capture in many available formats.
Do i understand correctly ?
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Walter_Graff said:
You may be right about P2, time will definitely tell.
But I think you might be underestimating the value people will put on variable frame rates and the DVCProHD (and DVCPro50) codec.
I think it's quite possible for the HVX to sell well while P2 sales may never really take off. I guess I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive.
In the end it's 'perceived' value that matters...whether right or wrong. And there seems to be a pretty big "anti HDV" movement out there. Whether right or wrong it looks like a good piece of the market will take whatever HD alternative is out there that is not HDV.
So, while P2 might not sell...I still think the HVX will find a good piece of marketshare.
Will HDV cameras sell better? Very possibly... but I don't think that means the HVX will be a failure.
Time will tell for sure.
braw
Well-known member
This is simply my opinion, but I think the HVX will attract more attention from the indie film crowd. It is, barring a bad picture, the best setup for film like approach. I mean this from the standpoint of the codec. It's far friendlier for post work and visual effects from everything I can tell.
I think HDV is also good for independent narrative as well, but for very practically shot stuff. It's rare that anything that doesn't have a decent deal of "salt and pepper" added ex post facto gets in anyone’s homes, or on Blockbusters shelves. I very much feel that for small features now, it's so much less about if it was shot on video or film because of how much the gap has closed, but how much production value has gone into it overall. The ability for more elbowroom in post digitally is far more important than a removable lens, or longer telephoto. I would take shoulder mount and interchangeable lenses if I could, but the codec for me tips the scale too far.
P2 is a wonderful idea and concept, but like has been said a million times by both supporters and naysayers, it's expensive. A little beyond the ability to catch on like wildfire. I know the cards will drop in price, and I very much expect them to drop sooner and faster than what has been let on. Panasonic has been putting a lot behind this system, and before they let it die, I suspect they will let them go at a loss if no one wants them just to get them out there.
I think HDV is also good for independent narrative as well, but for very practically shot stuff. It's rare that anything that doesn't have a decent deal of "salt and pepper" added ex post facto gets in anyone’s homes, or on Blockbusters shelves. I very much feel that for small features now, it's so much less about if it was shot on video or film because of how much the gap has closed, but how much production value has gone into it overall. The ability for more elbowroom in post digitally is far more important than a removable lens, or longer telephoto. I would take shoulder mount and interchangeable lenses if I could, but the codec for me tips the scale too far.
P2 is a wonderful idea and concept, but like has been said a million times by both supporters and naysayers, it's expensive. A little beyond the ability to catch on like wildfire. I know the cards will drop in price, and I very much expect them to drop sooner and faster than what has been let on. Panasonic has been putting a lot behind this system, and before they let it die, I suspect they will let them go at a loss if no one wants them just to get them out there.
esperman
Well-known member
Walter_Graff said:
P2 will not be another M2. Flash memory prices are falling, and getting alot more storage capacity as well. XDCAM isn't that great....disc's can be damaged and you still have to transcode the files before editing.
In 2 years time, we'll be using more solidstate acquisition along with flash memory hybrid drives for storage. And next year we'll have 500 - 800 gig 3.5 harddrives anyways to backup footage (as well as blueray dvds around 50 gigs for backup as well)
And walter, when you moved to varicam..you bought a deck and everything else that was needed?? Same with this, except being alot less cash for DVCPRO HD.
P2 will be much more affordable for prosumers..... a P2 drive (1800) for connecting to an edit system, or a laptop with a pcmia slot for transferring files over the network. Anybody who can afford to buy an hxv200 or the XL H1 can afford P2.
Remember when 140meg hard drive cost more than what a 320 gig one now does? P2 will take off. Wether is DVD based, or flash based....tape will fade away.
This thread is about who Canon is looking to market to with some of these things like HD-SDI, Genlock and what have you. Another market they may be going for is the local broadcasters once they make the transition to HD broadcasting. I know here in Atlanta I've seen Beta SX and DVCAM being used by local news crews meaning that when they start broadcasting all HD they will eventually have to switch to HD cameras unless they want to just upres SD footage. Atlanta is one of the 10 largest markets in the country so they could probably handle the cost of upgrading to pro HD cameras for local boradcasting over a short period of time. On the other hand in much of the rest of the country $50,000+ cameras might be a little out of the budget for "Up & at 'em Omaha". Some $9,000 camers that can output true HD could be great for places in smaller markets who want to capture in HD. Heck depending on the quality (and I've heard, but not seen first hand, many conflicting opinions about the reletive quality or lack thereof of HDV) it could even be good for ENG work in smaller markets. A news crew in Montana would certanly look more professional carrying around an XL-H1 than a HDX 200 or a Z1. Notice on Canon's own website for this camera they even have background music that sounds like the 6 O'clock news and the headline "Breaking News" about the camera.
Since Canon is such a big lens maker you know they will come out with a manual lens, and a wide angle lens for this camera.
Since Canon is such a big lens maker you know they will come out with a manual lens, and a wide angle lens for this camera.
That's what it has always boiled down to. Jan has already hinted that the HVX's CCD specs may, on paper, disappoint but that Panasonic was more interested in producing a camera that yielded as good an image as was possible given the limitations of a third-inch CCD. As to the rest of it -- the pet features we'd like to see -- I'm certain that Panasonic is working on that stuff.Barry_Green said: