So is this the camera for the newbie film maker?

M

Mavoz

Well-known member
Hi,

I'm very new here and hope people don't mind me asking for a bit of advice!

I'm an existing user of a Panasonic Mx300 DV cam that has served me well but I'm getting more serious about trying to make short films of a professional quality.
One thing that has frustrated me a little with the Mx300 is some of the consumer aspects of the cam such as 3.5mm mic jacks etc. and achieving slow mo..and nicer "bokeh" effect..ie subject standing out from background....

Now reading about the hvx200 here...it sounds like a great cam...but is the thing overkill or does it find the sweet spot of "bang for buck"? (Hard question I know!)

I'm currently wanting to film the story of my Uncles war experiences with the Wehrmacht in WW2..as well as my Dad's own stories of growing up in the 1920's in Australia..both gentlemen now into their 80's.

I'm aware of seizing the day and want to at least get the shots at a quality that I know is going to be more likely to stand the test of time. I'm guessing HD is very important...but am a bit nervous about the massive overheads of the stuff compared to standard DV...and as an Adobe Video suite user also a bit put off by some of the posts re: lack of DVC Pro HD support (whatever that exactly is!!)

Reading about the number of professionals here with budgets well beyond mine...and terminology that leaves me a bit confused...I'm wondering whether the HVX200 is perhaps more than I need?

Or is it indeed a camera that will provide all one could really want in a camera...that will have a long life..and provide me with a great deal of opportunities to craft skills and develop this growing film making passion of mine!?

PS If it's easier to answer...just let me know how long a piece of string is:thumbsup:


Thanks!
 
Well, let's be clear about one thing: no camera is going to turn someone into a filmmaker.

And a great filmmaker could make something incredible on any camera (including your existing MX300, of course).

But, with that said, craftsmen usually prefer better tools. An ace carpenter may very well be able to get great results from a $3 hammer, but you'll usually never see an ace carpenter using a $3 hammer either. A $500 tennis racquet isn't going to turn me into Andre Agassi, but then again you won't ever see Andre Agassi playing with a $20 racquet either!

The camera does not make the filmmaker. But filmmakers who know what they want do tend to gravitate towards certain features. Panasonic's garnered a lot of filmmakers' hearts by offering 24P acquisition and their CineGamma and CineMatrix looks. If you feel like you've taken the MX300 as far as it can go, then maybe upgrading is a wise move. Just don't expect it to do anything magical on its own; it's up to you to take it there... the better tool just makes it easier and more enjoyable to get there!

The HVX is the most flexible camera out there as far as what it can do -- it can shoot 720, it can shoot 1080, it can shoot standard-def in three different modes, it can shoot 4:1:1 or 4:2:2 color, it can shoot fast-motion and slow-motion with its variable frame rates, it can shoot to DV tape or tapeless or stream to a computer or a FireStore or CinePorter... for a lot of us it's more than we were hoping for. And since it's high-def, and shoots all six forms of high-def that the ATSC approved, it should be good for a long, long time.

Whether it's right for you is a whole different question. I mean, many of us own DVX100's (and 100A's and 100B's) and are delighted with them; several DVX100-shot films have been released in theaters. Is it "enough" camera? Maybe. Probably. It's certainly the biggest hit Panasonic ever had. It's also thousands of dollars less than an HVX. Then again, it's not high-def either.

Right now there's never been a wider and more compelling selection of cameras to choose from for an indie; the DVX and XL2 on the low-cost standard-def side, the HVX and HD100 and XLH1 on the low-cost high-def side, and the SPX and SDX on the high-cost SD side, and then there's all the new wunderkams in the $20,000 - $40,000 price range, including XDCAM HD, JVC's GY-7000U, Panasonic's new 2/3" P2 camera, Grass Valley's Infinity, and of course RED. All of them (except the Infinity) offer 24P filmlike acquisition, and each offers features that the others don't.

With that said, recognize where you are -- you're on DVXUser, a community founded on making a place where DVX owners and aspirants could get together and talk about their favorite gear, so don't be surprised if you find a lot of recommendations for the DVX. Of course, DVXUser is also a massive community because there are a lot of people out there who like the DVX and HVX!

Either DVX or HVX would probably be a mindblowing miracle vs. the MX300, but be aware that you're not going to get the bokeh effect you want very easily unless you go up significantly in price (at least to a 2/3" camera) or invest in a mini35/Micro35/CineMek/SG35/Letus35 type of adapter.
 
Barry how do you do it? Always the right answer and taking the time to do so. Amazing.

My two cents since Barry have given a good overview is that for the projects mentioned the DVX, lit well and shoot well will offer much to work with, save money, be easier to edit and last for many years to come.

My opinion is that HD might lend a bit too sharp of an image to a documentary if there will be a lot of talking heads. It's too easy to focus on things like skin blemishes and scars, etc. because of HD's resolution. Now, it might be more a simple matter of taste, but it's something to think about.

HD is the future there's no doubt about that, but for many the tried and true DVX is very much the present as well as the not-too-distant future.

Welcome to one of the most addictive sites on the internet. :)
 
Barry delivers again. Certainly outlines the choices. I would recommend the jump to the DVX for several reasons. Most importantly, it will be a lot more familiar to you and certainly a lot cheaper. This will enable you to spend some money on the other gear that certainly will increase your quality... like getting a professional shotgun mike, lav mikes, and a decent 2 or 3 point lighting kit. Adding to this, might be a dolly or a consumer stedicam... 35mm adapter and the like.

I too often see first time filmmakers, renting a film camera and spending their inheritence on stock and processing. Now, this works for a few people who have unique subjects and unique perspectives, but for that most part it's just a learning experience... and an expensive one. Why not learn on a cheap medium.. perfect what you want to convey and go from there.

I went to film school.. got out and HAD to make my first feature before I was 25.. So I did it, and it turned out well and got me a lot of contacts.. but I wish that DV had been around back then so I wouldn't have 65k in filmstock sitting in my office right now. I see the rookie mistakes and wish I could have made them more inexpensively.

I think the DVX or an XL2 or something would be great cameras to get use out of. They will be around and used for a while .. and then you can move to slow-mo and HD in the future. Another final idea would be to rent the HVX when it's available and see how you like it.. and also, get yourself a Macintosh so you'll be ready to roll. Had to put that in there.


Good luck and keep us up to date. Just don't feel the pressure to go beyond your means. I know that it took me 4 years to recover from my indi feature.. and that stinks. You should not go into debt or bankruptcy to make ya film. Do it however you can and go from there. As I posted previously, one of the best movies I have ever seen was the "Celebration" and that was shot on a 900 dollar single chip DV.
 
Excellent posts by everyone.

One thing to consider is that for ~$5500 you can get the HVX200, which is essentially a DVX100 that can shoot in native 16x9 widescreen with a sharper lens and all sorts of new goodies the DVX doesn't have, and record regular DV onto $5 MiniDV tapes. When you're ready to take the HD plunge, you can plug in a P2 card, a Firestore or Cineporter, or a Laptop to your HVX.

If I were in the market for an SD camera, I'd go with the HVX, just for the option of HD later on.

That said, I own a DVX100 (old school), and I couldn't be happier. Most everyone that's seen my footage can't believe it's video.
 
Barry_Green said:
but be aware that you're not going to get the bokeh effect you want very easily unless you go up significantly in price (at least to a 2/3" camera) or invest in a mini35/Micro35/CineMek/SG35/Letus35 type of adapter.
Click to expand...

Barry, are you saying that a 35mm lens adapter set-up for an HVX will deliver quality that is comparable to a 2/3" CCD camera? I really want to achieve the best cinematic quality with the HXV 1/3" chips but obviously don't want to spend the big bucks on a 2/3" camera. I've been considering something like a Guerilla35 for sometime down the road a bit. I'm just curious how much detail those 35mm optics will deliver to 1/3" chips on the HVX. I'm assuming that the biggest advantage is being able to easily create a shallow depth-of-field, along with a softer, more organic look for cinema.

D~C
 
I think a one of the most important things from the original post that no one has touched on yet is this:
Mavoz said:
...as an Adobe Video suite user also a bit put off by some of the posts re: lack of DVC Pro HD support (whatever that exactly is!!)
Click to expand...
Clearly, the subject of codecs is new to Mavoz, and that's completely fine (as it is quite frustrating just how many there are and how well they don't play together). Unfortunately, if he edits in Premiere and there is no support for DVCPROHD (the codec (format) that the HVX records in), then this camera would be a waste of his time. Now, maybe a solution exists (I assume something like the RayLight thing would help him here), but he should be aware of the extra costs and steps it will take to make his footage compatible with the workflow he's already used to. One could say that he could just use the DV tape drive for now, but then I think that would be wasting quite a bit of money for features he's not going to use. Sans the variable framerates that can be internally downconverted to tape in-camera (and he'd still need at least one P2 card for that), he would lose the advantages of HD and 4:2:2 color space that he paid for.

I think the DVX would be a wiser choice for someone starting their filmmaking journey as it is already established, has full support from every NLE across the board, and will give him 24p and beautiful color curves that we don't even know if the HVX is capable of matching yet. In time, he can "move up" after he gets a feel for the process and determines what other needs he may have. Also, the HVX may be a little overwhelming for someone who's starting cold, as I've read many reviews from longtime DVX users who have mentioned that the menu system is somewhat confusing and reporting to the manual has become a "must" them in order to figure out how to get certain things to work. If you're not even familiar with what the terms mean, it may be a more frustrating experience than an enriching one for him. Just my two cents...
 
DC said:
Barry, are you saying that a 35mm lens adapter set-up for an HVX will deliver quality that is comparable to a 2/3" CCD camera?
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No, of course not -- nowhere near. All I'm saying is that it will have shallower DOF than the 2/3" camera would.

I've been considering something like a Guerilla35 for sometime down the road a bit. I'm just curious how much detail those 35mm optics will deliver to 1/3" chips on the HVX.
Click to expand...
So am I. I'd love to try one out.
 
I would reiterate Justyn's excellent point. If you are trying to improve the quality of your product, make sure you have budgeted out everything: sound (people ALWAYS underestimate the proper sound budget), lighting, camera accessories, and post production.

In the prosumer world, a good rough guesstimate for a budget would have the camera covering about 1/3 to 1/4 of your equipment budget (again that is VERY rough but the actual expense is going to come in higher not lower then that).

Good luck
 
Barry_Green said:
No, of course not -- nowhere near. All I'm saying is that it will have shallower DOF than the 2/3" camera would.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought. The way you phrased your original statement made me wonder though. :)

D~C
 
Thanks for the great responses Barry and others! Plenty to think about.

I guess the choices and arguments for each are fairly simple:

Option A. Spend nothing on a camera and keep using the MX 300...it has so far served me well and the average punter who knows nothing of codecs and tape formats tends to just look at the film as a film....creativity and production counts for more...and more importantly as times passes the new cameras/formats/codecs get better, cheaper and more established.

Option B. Buy a DVX100 - great value ...excellent quality and pro features...as said..

."I think the DVX would be a wiser choice for someone starting their filmmaking journey as it is already established, has full support from every NLE across the board, and will give him 24p and beautiful color curves that we don't even know if the HVX is capable of matching yet. In time, he can "move up" after he gets a feel for the process and determines what other needs he may have"

The Money saved may well be better reserved for other film making items such as lights/mics/not to mention a few training courses/books/dvds!

The DVX100 provides a great camera to learn the craft with.

Option C. Buy the HVX200...as also said....

"..... for ~$5500 you can get the HVX200, which is essentially a DVX100 that can shoot in native 16x9 widescreen with a sharper lens and all sorts of new goodies the DVX doesn't have, and record regular DV onto $5 MiniDV tapes. When you're ready to take the HD plunge, you can plug in a P2 card, a Firestore or Cineporter, or a Laptop to your HVX."

Part of me likes this argument too...sometimes been stung in the past when I've gone cheaper options ..and then regretted lack of extra features! I recognise HD is the future..and with this camera you're there already...and in time Adobe might even get with the right codecs too...

Option D: Buy a piece of string...doesn't make your films any better but is cheap and provides endless hours of amusement in working out length measuring permutations;)

Thanks everyone for assisting...great food for thought!
 
Mavoz said:
Option D: Buy a piece of string...doesn't make your films any better but is cheap and provides endless hours of amusement in working out length measuring permutations;)
Click to expand...

:grin: I like this guy, I think he will fit right in here. :thumbsup:
 
Dude if you get the dvx you will never go back to the mx300 or to any of the Sony's( which everyone else in Oz buys). I did a 3 camera shoot for a community channel in Sydney and my friends were amazed at how I was able to tweak the dvx100 to match their sony's. They were shocked when I showed them I could have 6 different presets for 6 different shooting situations. Their cameras were hardly tweakable at all. But it is a steep learning curve and I've used the camera for two years.

What I would suggest you do is get a good sound guy and and a good cinematographer/cameraman. You can concentrate on the story, communicating with your subject, making them comfortable, actually listening to them rather than just concerning yourself with the technical stuff. I'm not sure where you're at skill wise but I can tell you abit of light and good audio will matter alot more than what type of camera you use.

Having said that the dvx plus good lighting will be as good as any sd camera out there. It could almost get away with being 16mm if you can control the light.

I havent even scratched the potential of the dvx. IT would be a great camera to learn on and then move onto the HVX. YOu can get the 100a model for real cheap now as well.
 
Mavoz said:
Option D: Buy a piece of string...doesn't make your films any better but is cheap and provides endless hours of amusement in working out length measuring permutations;)
Click to expand...
I knew it was only a matter of time before someone turned this into another measuring contest... :thumbsup:
 
"Its not the length of the string that matters, but how you use it" ...someone once said...


- Mikko ...does not own a video camera, but has lots of string.
 
As Barry said, a good camera will not make a good filmmaker. For the quality, you can purchase a good camera. For the skill, you must acquire on your own. I know plenty of proffesional videographers that spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment, but lack talent and make good content look bad. Just my two cents.

-Greg
 
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