So I got pulled over...

OldCorpse said:
Most of us are normal people trying to do the best job we can.

Absolutely. That's why you shouldn't give a cop any attitude. Obey whatever physical orders he gives you, identify yourself immediately upon asking, give whatever papers you should (if you're driving) etc. Be polite, don't act threatening, keep your hands visible and so on.

On the other hand, you shouldn't chat and try to buddy up or worse, be hostile and try to tell the cop how to do his job. They ain't your buddies. You never know what kind of cop you may encounter, so behave professionally, do what the laws say, and shut the heck up - always remember, a cop has the power to destroy your life.

As a cop you can understand that - after all, you as a cop have no idea what kind of a person you are stopping. What if it's some psycho? You must take precautions, you approach safely and so on.

In other words it goes both ways. Be professional with a cop - he's doing a job. And as a cop you're professional with the public, not a "warm and fuzzy".

It's how our system is set up, and we should respect that. It's when people don't respect that, that trouble results.
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Should be sticky'd in the "How to be an Adult" forum.
 
It's only appropriate that I mention the one time I was involved in an auto accident—not my fault, while I was making a left, the guy who hit me had quickly entered the intersection after bypassing the car sitting in front of him by entering the bike lane. Afterward, I was standing in the cold on the corner, thanking G-d I was fine while the other driver remained motionless behind his steering wheel. Up pulls a police officer whose son I had been tutoring. He tells me to hop in. Nice warm SUV. Apparently his wife had seen me standing outside and phoned him to help me on his day off. He drove me home and advised me how to speak to my insurance company.

...

When I was 23, my girlfriend and I were driving to the Grand Canyon. I was behind the wheel and wanted to arrive before sunrise. An officer caught me going 79 in a 40. I learned that he could have arrested me. Some time later in my home state, during some bureaucratically-driven reason I was at the DMV, I found out that my license had been suspended for three months and that it had begun a month earlier. Luckily, they allowed me to work out times I could drive for work-related reasons.


groveChuck said:
Jordan, is your stop going to be a scene in a film?
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I am itching to enter "ThrillFest" instead of coming up with excuses yet again...
 
jscottprice said:
Should be sticky'd in the "How to be an Adult" forum.
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Just quoting because it used to be kind of funny about how fast a police officer could sober us up. I mean, once in the presense of the law, you find that you can smarten up pretty quick.

It's funny that some of us, the older we get, we don't necessarily become an adult. In fact, for some of us, it's quite the opposite.

...well, that and having the ability to steer totally off topic? Hey, I'm digging it.

-Cheers.
 
Don't try to tell me how to do my job pal. And what's with the friendly attitude? I'm not your buddy. You never know what kind of person I could be, I'm a cop after all! Shut the heck up. I have the power to destroy your life!

Part of the training? My attitude shouldn't be a concern, your job is to get the facts, show me a reading, give me a ticket, or do whatever you have to do. You work for me after all, don't waste your time and my money, do your job. If you can't ignore my attitude or if you feel you need to do something about my attitude, you shouldn't be a cop. People have an attitude against civil servants or sales people all the time, what's the difference with a cop? Delusions of power? Remember that you are wasting my time when you are doing your job, that giving orders to a human being is something most people find insulting and that being accused and suspect of something I haven't done is downright degrading. Be extremely professional and patient and you will rarely get a really bad attitude. If my attitude goes far enough to attack your personality, you can sue me.

We sometimes take things for granted. But giving any policeman the power to search a vehicle and go through my stuff is not even logical. There is violation involved and this explains the attitude of people when police stop their car. The law itself allows policemen to violate our rights by searching the car in most countries. The police do not have a warrant and there is nothing illegal in plain view, but people give their concent just because they are intimidated by the police. Not giving the permission makes them suspect and the law allows the search on plain suspicion conceived by any cop. Talk about a structured and well conceived violation of our rights.

Imagine a world where any policeman could force his entry to my property at any time and search my house. Random searches without a warrant based on suspicion, without the approval or a higher official such as a judge. That wouldn't be any cop, that would be Judge Dread:)

We do get some rights though. We can choose if the person that will search our private parts will be a male or a female. Lots of choice that covers just about any sexual orientation. May I be searched by both of you officer? How about two female officers?
 
This was in the former DDR on the TRANSIT highway from West Berlin to Bavaria 1981:
cop pulls me over walks to my car tells me to roll down windows asks for my drivers license etc....I ask "for what" he says "for not signalling after I overtook a truck"
I said: " you got your pistol?" "why?" " cause you have to pull it and shoot me cause youre not getting anything from me" he looked stupefied for 3 seconds then waved me away.....a year later I get a letter from the west german ministry of traffic saying that in their yearly encounter with the minster from the east they notified that it was not safe for me to drive thru east germany anymore....:grin:
 
Doc Bernard said:
Wow, Otis, have a few negative experiences?
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I know where he's coming from. Sometimes cops are just freakin' insane. I had an experience that was the height of police stupidity (and I have no problem with cops in general). I had got off from work, a guy from the job and a friend of mine were talking in front of the building in downtown Chicago. Now, let me set the scene:

White guy: Hip hop, long blond dreads, short cargo pants and T-shirt (he was off that day but his GF worked there).

Us: Two black guys dressed business casual. In fact my friend had a thing for Gap back in the day so he's dressed from head to toe in Gap clothes including that basic Gap leather jacket and black loafers. I was in black slacks and a turtleneck (or maybe it was a button down) either way...these are called "Work Clothes". LOL.

A cop sees us and approaches. Now, I'm thinking if white Rasta man has some old smokey on him, this is going to be trouble. BUT the cop stops us and says, "We got a report of two black guys walking around with a camera. My I search your bags?"

"What officer?"

"Someone called and said two black guys were walking around with a camera."

"Um, is taking pictures illegal officer?"

"No. Where are you two coming from."

"From work. We work right there and just got off."

"Well, I'd like to search your bags please."

"Um, no."

And we walked away.

But when I shoot, I always have a white guy or Asian with me as not to break the two black guys and camera law. LOL. Not really, but yea, this actually did happen to me and a friend.

The irony is this happened about '98 or '99. So I hadn't even gotten into videography and had no reason to have a camera of any type. We'd left work and were heading to the Art Institute to meet friends.

-Nate
 
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Scary story, Nathan!

Cops- a chicken or egg thing.
How many of them were aggressive, power hungry borderline personality or sociopath types before joining the force, and how many change from too many stressful, negative experiences on the job? It's not like they deal with the nicest, most well adjusted people on the job when things get really tough.

And no, I'm not anti-cop, I'm anti power hungry.

A shooter friend of mine with 20 years experience is finishing the police academy in a few months, just to get a job with benefits and pension. It's crazy! But he has 4 kids, and doesn't feel he can adequately provide for them. And he thinks he'll still shoot and edit on his days off, (that is, if he's not exhausted and stressed, crashing on the couch).

It's an insane job (but my friend is not insane), who would want it?
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@timbook2 - yeah, I remember that Tranststrecke pretty well. When you where crossing the border in Hof, it was like entering the dark empire. You where lucky, you could have also ended up in a Russian gulag. I had pretty bad experience with Vo-Pos.

@groveChuck - What`s the problem?

As a cop the actually pay him for shooting people :D

Frank
 
Doc Bernard said:
Wow, Otis, have a few negative experiences?
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Not at all. I don't even know anyone who has had a negative experience. But the whole search the car thing is stupid. I think we are giving away some of our rights and some cops do not realise what the situation is like for us. There is nothing natural about being stopped, given orders and searched.

EDIT: I was responding to OldCorpse.
 
In US law, probable cause is the standard by which a police officer has the authority to make an arrest, conduct a personal or property search, or to obtain a warrant for arrest.

"Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction.

From the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 
Otis Grapsas said:
There is nothing natural about being stopped, given orders and searched.
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Trying to think of a response to this.

And the only thing I could think of is maybe things are different in Greece. Here in the US, we are given some reasonable protection from "search and seizure". But that means "reasonable" protection. Driving around with a bunch of weapons in plain view, or the odor of an illicit substance, is reason for search. I mention illicit substances, in reference to driving, specifically. The odor of alcohol, or marijuana coming from a vehicle in a traffic stop situation......... I completely support a search under probable cause. That is a REALLY good indication that one or more of the occupants are under the influence. Or a threat to the public.

I am 100% for personal rights, but I am 100% for personal responsibility too. And I have seen too many examples (everyday) of "lack of said responsibility" to just trust everyone to be responsible.

Could you imagine what this world would be like with no enforcement of the rules, considering how many people flaunt the law with the level of enforcement we have now? Sheer anarchy.
 
In Greece it's similar.

I must show my ID but I don't have to answer any questions about what I'm doing, where I am going etc.

As long as I have shown my ID, the policeman cannot ask me to follow him/her to the police station.

I must follow the policeman if I have recently commited an offense (+24h) in which case I should be told what the offense was, or if they have a warrant from a judge that mentions what the offense was. I don't have to answer any questions in any case.

Search warrant must be similar also. The warrant must apply to the specific house. That's enough for searching during the day. After 8/9pm, only a recent crime or an arrest warrant justifies the search.

The law for searching a person is equally flexible and abusive to the law in the USA. You could easily be searched if you look suspicious, or if you are in an area with high crime. Denying search to protect your rights can be soncidered suspicion. The law allows the policeman to ask you to face the wall and put your hands on the wall and spread your legs or drop on the floor. You can be someone's puppet for a few seconds. They can search the car just by telling you they are searching for drugs. The law automatically grants permission.

It's insane. Any cop can accuse your, prosecute you and find you not guilty and you have to tolerate it all. I don't see how it's different from a policeman entering your house, accuse you of molesting your daughter, having experts talk to your daughter and examine her, then say goodnight and leave the house. You would feel some of your rights were violated, right?
 
Otis Grapsas said:
In Greece it's similar.

I must show my ID but I don't have to answer any questions about what I'm doing, where I am going etc.

As long as I have shown my ID, the policeman cannot ask me to follow him/her to the police station.

I must follow the policeman if I have recently commited an offense (+24h) in which case I should be told what the offense was, or if they have a warrant from a judge that mentions what the offense was. I don't have to answer any questions in any case.

Search warrant must be similar also. The warrant must apply to the specific house. That's enough for searching during the day. After 8/9pm, only a recent crime or an arrest warrant justifies the search.

The law for searching a person is equally flexible and abusive to the law in the USA. You could easily be searched if you look suspicious, or if you are in an area with high crime. Denying search to protect your rights can be soncidered suspicion. The law allows the policeman to ask you to face the wall and put your hands on the wall and spread your legs or drop on the floor. You can be someone's puppet for a few seconds. They can search the car just by telling you they are searching for drugs. The law automatically grants permission.

It's insane. Any cop can accuse your, prosecute you and find you not guilty and you have to tolerate it all. I don't see how it's different from a policeman entering your house, accuse your of molesting your daughter, having experts talk to your daughter and examine her, then say goodnight and leave the house. You would feel some of your rights were violated, right?
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Okay, I am sensing there is more to this............. And understandable. But basing an entire opinion off an experience............. It may be getting close to "discrimination", against those that wear a badge. I am not trying to belittle your experience, I just come from a different side of the equation.

Let's take that example you used. Would you rather children not have any protection from those that are really abusing them? What's the solution here? You feel there would be a violation of your rights if there was someone suspected of abuse in your home, and they investigated it? Turn the tables for a second. YOU overhear a child say they are being molested at home. What's your reaction then? Dismiss the child's affirmation? Or report it, hoping justice is done. Justice cannot come about, without investigation. And investigation cannot be honest with the suspected individual having fore-knowledge and time to destroy evidence.

Sorry, you chose the wrong exemplar for this argument. I will always give benefit of the doubt to the kid when it comes to accusations of molestation. The accused individual should, if innocent, be open to any and all questioning and testing. And frankly, as much as I give credence to individual rights, if I am falsely accused of something....... you better believe I would bend over backwards to provide anything to make sure I am found not guilty. Then I would make a stand..........afterwards. Not before. Trying to make a point beforehand......ehhhh. Not ure about that. I am not that much of a political advocate.
 
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Doc Bernard said:
Trying to think of a response to this.

And the only thing I could think of is maybe things are different in Greece. Here in the US, we are given some reasonable protection from "search and seizure". But that means "reasonable" protection. Driving around with a bunch of weapons in plain view, or the odor of an illicit substance, is reason for search. I mention illicit substances, in reference to driving, specifically. The odor of alcohol, or marijuana coming from a vehicle in a traffic stop situation......... I completely support a search under probable cause. That is a REALLY good indication that one or more of the occupants are under the influence. Or a threat to the public.

I am 100% for personal rights, but I am 100% for personal responsibility too. And I have seen too many examples (everyday) of "lack of said responsibility" to just trust everyone to be responsible.

Could you imagine what this world would be like with no enforcement of the rules, considering how many people flaunt the law with the level of enforcement we have now? Sheer anarchy.
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Things are far better in Greece in this department.

Policemen should do their job, no question about that, but I should have rights to protect me from those who are not very good at doing their job. The truth is that in most countries the policeman can search the car without a serious reason, on pure suspicion reinforced by you denying the search. I imagine policemen do that in the USA also. It could be because you fit certain some stereotype in age, culture, race, hairstyle, etc. These things happen when the law is not exact.

Btw, I believe that anyone driving on alcohol or drugs should loose his/her license for life.
 
Doc Bernard said:
Okay, I am sensing there is more to this............. And understandable. But basing an entire opinion off an experience............. It may be getting close to "discrimination", against those that wear a badge. I am not trying to belittle your experience, I just come from a different side of the equation.

Let's take that example you used. Would you rather children not have any protection from those that are really abusing them? What's the solution here? You feel there would be a violation of your rights if there was someone suspected of abuse in your home, and they investigated it? Turn the tables for a second. YOU overhear a child say they are being molested at home. What's your reaction then? Dismiss the child's affirmation? Or report it, hoping justice is done. Justice cannot come about, without investigation. And investigation cannot be honest with the suspected individual having fore-knowledge and time to destroy evidence.

CORRECTION: It's Judge Dredd not Dread.

Sorry, you chose the wrong exemplar for this argument. I will always give benefit of the doubt to the kid when it comes to accusations of molestation. The accused individual should, if innocent, be open to any and all questioning and testing. And frankly, as much as I give credence to individual rights, if I am falsely accused of something....... you better believe I would bend over backwards to provide anything to make sure I am found not guilty. Then I would make a stand..........afterwards. Not before.
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What do you mean when you say "there is more to this"? What "experience"?

I report the incident of course. But a judge will handle that. There is a warrant involved. Extending the power of a simple policeman to such height is not different from 2002AD/Judge Dread combining the powers or police/judge/jury/executioner. I wouldn't say violence has reached a point where something like that is required. I don't believe the average cop has the education, know-how and maturity to do the job of a judge. The law should make sure that doesn't happen. We have given away enough of our liberties in the past few years.

A greek work for policeman is "organon" which means instrument. That's what a policeman is to justice.
 
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Since when is the officer the
police/judge/jury/executioner
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?

Are you demanded payment on the spot? Or are you given an opportunity in court?

As to the example you gave.......well, it was your example. I just used it to make a point. But it seemed you knew more about that subject than you were saying, based on the wording. But the point of what I said/asked has been overlooked here. I ask it again.
YOU overhear a child say they are being molested at home. What's your reaction then? Dismiss the child's affirmation? Or report it, hoping justice is done. Justice cannot come about, without investigation. And investigation cannot be honest with the suspected individual having fore-knowledge and time to destroy evidence.
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I told you, using child molestation as an exemplar was a bad idea. How far should the investigation go to prove/disprove guilt/innocence?
 
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Doc Bernard said:
Sorry, you chose the wrong exemplar for this argument. I will always give benefit of the doubt to the kid when it comes to accusations of molestation. The accused individual should, if innocent, be open to any and all questioning and testing. And frankly, as much as I give credence to individual rights, if I am falsely accused of something....... you better believe I would bend over backwards to provide anything to make sure I am found not guilty. Then I would make a stand..........afterwards. Not before. Trying to make a point beforehand......ehhhh. Not ure about that. I am not that much of a political advocate.
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I don't see any difference. You are accused of doing something illegal. And this could be an effect of the policeman having a bad day or passing judgement on you because of the way you look. I would rather have a judge decide before somebody violates my rights and wastes my time. The judge would only consider true evidence because he/she has great responsibility against the law. The policeman is practically allowed to search your car any time he/she wants. I see a problem with that.
 
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