Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"

As a ROUGH rule of thumb:

About 1 --> 2.5 minutes per GB of memory with P2 depending on the mode selected.

About 3+ minutes per GB of memory with SxS at 35Mbps.

About 5+ minutes per GB of memory with SD/SDHC memory on the 150 at the highest data rate.


Also, because both P2 and SxS must use a RAID Controller the price per GB is higher than an SD/SDHC memory card. For example using just the prices on Panasonic's WEB Pages:
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...roupId=34401&surfModel=AG-HVX200&displayTab=S
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...GroupId=14571&surfModel=AG-HMC70&displayTab=S

P2 16GB = $900, about $56 per GB (NOTE: SxS is the same price.)

SDHC 16 GB = $380, about about $24 per GB


For the lower end of the professional market, this is a real plus for the HMC-150. Not only is the price per GB less than P2 or SxS, but the number of minutes per GB is increased.

On the other hand, the work flow is easier for the higher priced cameras using P2 and SxS. So, it's still a matter of you get what you pay for.

Still, for the Wedding, Student, Church, Schools, and other productions with limited funds, AVCHD opens up a door to tapeless work flow that wasn't there at that price point.


Bob Diaz
 
BobDiaz said:
As a ROUGH rule of thumb:

About 1 --> 2.5 minutes per GB of memory with P2 depending on the mode selected.

About 3+ minutes per GB of memory with SxS at 35Mbps.

About 5+ minutes per GB of memory with SD/SDHC memory on the 150 at the highest data rate.


Also, because both P2 and SxS must use a RAID Controller the price per GB is higher than an SD/SDHC memory card. For example using just the prices on Panasonic's WEB Pages:
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...roupId=34401&surfModel=AG-HVX200&displayTab=S
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...GroupId=14571&surfModel=AG-HMC70&displayTab=S

P2 16GB = $900, about $56 per GB (NOTE: SxS is the same price.)

SDHC 16 GB = $380, about about $24 per GB
Click to expand...

Hey Bob, I thought you were building to the real clincher and were gonna provide the most important numbers - cost per time! Seems to me the important conclusion to your post is:

P2 = $22-$56/minute of capacity
SxS 35Mb = ~$18/minute of capacity
150 at highest quality = ~$5/minute of capacity...
 
ullanta said:
Hey Bob, I thought you were building to the real clincher and were gonna provide the most important numbers - cost per time! Seems to me the important conclusion to your post is:

P2 = $22-$56/minute of capacity
SxS 35Mb = ~$18/minute of capacity
150 at highest quality = ~$5/minute of capacity...
Click to expand...

Lush and abundant budgets never think of cost per ?? . . just is it bigger or smaller than last year :o)

BTW, Panasonic "tech support" has yet to finalize my question to them about the RAID form on the P2. The tech I spoke with did not actually know so they must be either going to Japan or ??? to find out who (if anyone) actually knows for certain. Watch, no one knows . . they just threw a bunch of stuff in the card, smashed it together, and yaw dah yaw dah it just works :o)
 
ullanta said:
P2 = $22-$56/minute of capacity
SxS 35Mb = ~$18/minute of capacity
150 at highest quality = ~$5/minute of capacity...
Click to expand...
Thats using Bob's expensive 32GB estimate. Going by Barry's earlier post with cheaper media, the 150 would be more like 25 cents to a dollar per minute. Either way, quite a bargain.

Its amazing that these files will be smaller than DV files after all these years. I remember when I could only record about 45 minutes on my "fast" drive. I always assumed the HD files would be so much bigger (which it is in some formats like DVCPROHD), but with AVCHD, the files are smaller even at the highest bitrate. :D I guess that makes up for the slow rate that hard drive capacities have been increasing.
 
BobDiaz said:
For HDTV, 1920x180 IS a standard screen size, but I wonder if your Avid Support Person wasn't talking about movie film.
Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

He was probably thinking 1080 x 2048 which is the resolution used by cinema projectors such as Christie.
 
Konrad said:
He was probably thinking 1080 x 2048 which is the resolution used by cinema projectors such as Christie.
Click to expand...

These are still around (cinema projectors) ? Everyone around in our part of the country has gone to some kind of satellite hard drive system that keeps an auto count on the showings.
 
I certainly hope so. That would be a very valuable feature for the traveling filmer. I know some of the more expensive Panasonic models support or most likely will support this feature, so I was hoping they would make it available.
 
In that video that Bob Diaz pointed to where the HMC150 is being illustrated by the two Panasonic reps, the older gray haired gentleman (on the left of the video) is the one I met in DC last fall at the Gov Video conference wherein he was telling me all about the AVCHD cameras and the one that looked like a 80% sized mini DVC60 at under $2000 and then another camera that was coming out next year for around $3500. Looks like Panasonic is raising the price from the original intent.
 
Ah Oh . . "How much more taxing? {Is AVCHD} Importing 1.5 hours of full resolution AVCHD footage took over 3 hours (not bad) but exporting took about 36 hours on a dual-core 2.2GHz MacBook Pro with 4GB of RAM. I’ll be the first to admit it’s not the fastest machine but 36 hours for 1.5 hours of footage.. really? While exporting I had to keep a fan pointed at the MacBook Pro so it wouldn’t melt. I’m not a video guru by far so the exporting process might have nothing to do at all with AVCHD since it was already imported and converted to a much larger format (as in 1 hour took 60GB of space). . . . Verdict: It’s a lot easier to process photos. I plan on selling the Panasonic HDC-SD5 and replacing it with something less AVCHDy." NOTE: {added for clarification}

Entire article at: http://paulstamatiou.com/2008/03/08/why-im-avoiding-avchd

Wow, that's hard work - - full 1920x1080 native is a pistol for our dual xeon Avid NLE's already and anything harder than that is outta there for us. I read another article that was similiar but less appealing in the way it was presented but nonetheless the same result. This AVCHD isn't looking that good already. Why is it so difficult since the file size is sooooooooo small by comparison?
 
I use FCP, and my biggest concern with the AVCHD codec is the possible complications it adds to workflow, uploading, and exporting. This will be my first HD purchase, and coming from using simple tape based SD importing, and the AVCHD importing logistics just seem alot more complicated.

As an FCP user, can somebody explain to me what I need to do or know to best prepare myself for the AVCHD workflow? Currently I am using a rather Mediocre Imac, and am in the market for a new computer as it is. Should I be on the hunt for any particular specs?

- Daryl
 
Can FCP use AIC? FCP has pathetic AVC-HD support, compared to even iMovie. iMovie can quickly convert AVC-HD files into Apple Intermediate Codec. If you have iMovie, use that to convert to AIC, then edit the AIC files in FCP (if FCP can handle AIC files).
 
Let's stop the double standard here. There is no law that requires you to export to AVCHD. Depending on where the final output should go, you can also export using MPEG-2 if you want. The hidden assumption is that somehow with HDV you'll never need to export to MPEG-4 AVCHD H.264. Well, not exactly, I can think of 3 cases...


Case 1: Finished product should go to Blu-ray disk. Both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are legal here, but if for some reason you mush keep the size down, you you may have to export to AVCHD. HOWEVER, if you shot the thing on HDV, you would still need to export to AVCHD.


Case 2: You must give the finished product in some computer media form. Well, I guess that the person paying you decides what that format that should be. So, if they ask for AVCHD, you will still have to export to AVCHD, even if you shot the thing on HDV.


Case 3: You want the camera to play back the finished product. OK, we'll ignore having the computer do that or a Blu-ray player doing that... Yes, then with HDV, MPEG-2 is what we'll go to and with AVCHD, AVCHD is what we'll go to. This is the only case I can think of where HDV and AVCHD would have different exports. ... Unless you are allowed to play back the finished file on an HDV camera.


I can't think of any other cases where shotting on HDV wouldn't force you to export to AVCHD, BUT shotting on AVCHD does force you to export to AVCHD.

So drdimento, I'd be interested in seeing what cases you can come up with where HDV does NOT force an AVCHD output, but AVCHD DOES force an AVCHD output.


Bob Diaz
 
CASE 4: You've found that exporting to anything other than original native format OR .avi for importing to other projects almost always results in poorer quality video (even medium bit rate MPEG2 and QT) and especially if the "exported to file and imported to other project" has to have any filters applied that change color.

In fact, files that we exported from our G5's in MPEG2 looked absolutely horendous when trying to apply color mods when imported into other projects whereas if that same video was exported in native AVI or .mxf and reimported to the next project in that same native format the color effects/filters looked gorgeous and original.

EDIT: BTW, we did melt our only iMac when we tried to work with material that had been QT'd from a CineAlta900 and were trying to take the 3 dvd's of the movie and recode them into FCP studio and apply filters and titles and fried our mother board. We just never thought of the fan idea that Paul came up with . . although in our defense we never thought it would happen :o(
 
Barry_Green said:
Can FCP use AIC? FCP has pathetic AVC-HD support, compared to even iMovie. iMovie can quickly convert AVC-HD files into Apple Intermediate Codec. If you have iMovie, use that to convert to AIC, then edit the AIC files in FCP (if FCP can handle AIC files).
Click to expand...

I know it was mentioned, but what editing softwear can import AVCHD as is? I don't swear by FCP nor am I smitten over it, as I've used multiple editors. Its worth at least researching the editors with a straight and simple import option for AVCHD.

FCP just seems extremly problematic unless they do something about the lack of AVC options. Are most of the main editing programs expected to get on board with AVCHD compatable softwear (I'm not sure if thats phrased correctly) by the release of the 150?

- Daryl
 
Daryl Auguste said:
I know it was mentioned, but what editing softwear can import AVCHD as is?
Click to expand...
Lots of consumer editors can do it right now. The best of the bunch is EDIUS Broadcast or EDIUS Neo. But basically every NLE manufacturer has announced support, including Adobe, Apple, Avid, Canopus, MainConcept, Nero, Pinnacle, Sony Vegas, Sonic Solutions and Ulead. The question is how MUCH support, and in what apps?

Its worth at least researching the editors with a straight and simple import option for AVCHD.
Click to expand...
The straightest and simplest is unquestionably EDIUS. Just drag the files straight off the SD card and drop 'em on your timeline. FCP has the lamest implementation, which is that you have to take an extensive amount of time transcoding away from AVC-HD and into ProRes, which not only takes time but also results in file sizes that are about 10x as big (so your 32GB SD card full of footage now requires a 320GB hard disk!)

But, that's today. There's a good five months before the first "worthy" AVC-HD camera comes out, so maybe there'll be better solutions by then.

Also, there are conversion tools that will let you work the footage in any editor. CineForm has a converter already, IINM. And Canopus has had a converter that goes to CanopusHQ. And Panasonic supplies a Windows-only utility that converts from AVC-HD into P2/MXF format. And, of course, iMovie can convert the files to Apple Intermediate Codec.

Are most of the main editing programs expected to get on board with AVCHD compatable software by the release of the 150?
Click to expand...
On board, yes. But by the release of the 150? Who knows?

Further complicating the issue is the xenophobia that happens with some manufacturers (and by "some" I of course mean Sony). Sony's Vegas has some AVC-HD support but they specifically excluded Panasonic and Canon camcorders from their initial support. They later updated it to add limited support, but they still don't support the full range as far as I know. Maybe they'll update it and get on board.

Panasonic has a list of some editors that support AVC-HD right now on their website: ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/papers/AVC_FLYER.pdf

I don't know how up-to-date that paper is; for example, it says that EDIUS BroadCast has to transcode to CanopusHQ but that's not true. It's an option if you want to, but you can also edit the native file directly.
 
Barry_Green said:
Can FCP use AIC? FCP has pathetic AVC-HD support, compared to even iMovie. iMovie can quickly convert AVC-HD files into Apple Intermediate Codec. If you have iMovie, use that to convert to AIC, then edit the AIC files in FCP (if FCP can handle AIC files).
Click to expand...

FCP is capable of ingesting AVC HD as either ProRes 422 or AIC. It's an option you toggle when you log and capture. And yes, FCP is more than capable of editing AIC.
 
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