Slo-Mo and REDCODE RAW questions...

Jaime Valles

Jaime Valles

Veteran
OK, so some people (myself included) are a little unsure about the variable frame rates when using REDCODE RAW with the on-board RED-DRIVE. I'm sure some of these questions have been answered recently, but those answers seem buried under other topics, so I wanted to collect them all here.

I'm not interested in uncompressed RAW.

Say I want to shoot in 4K REDCODE RAW to the RED-DRIVE... What's the highest frame rate in order to do slow motion? 30p?

If I shoot in 2K REDCODE RAW, does that go up to 60p or 120p?

Is 2K REDCODE RAW windowed or scaled? Will that make a huge difference in the final look of the footage?

I know that not all the final specs have been nailed down yet, so maybe some of these questions can't be answered right now. Thanks in advance!
 
1) yes, 4K max 30p onboard

2) I'm not sure on max framerate for 2K onboard, 720p will go to 60 frames per second onboard if I remember correctly

3) 2K RAW is windowed, you can't (in theory there might be options, but not really) scale RAW. Difference is lower resolution, and narrower FOV (field of view) for S35 lenses (not S16, or at least not much)
 
I have to say, I'm a little disappointed with these in-camera limitations. I was originally under the impression that you could do 4k to 60fps compressed on-board and 2k to 120fps compressed on-board. I don't remember where I got this impression, perhaps from the NAB chart (it's very possible I misread it). Now it sounds like I'm limited to pretty much 30fps unless connected to a RAID... hrumpf...

Since it's going to be expensive and difficult to create and haul around a large RAID and computer (what is RED-RAID?), it sounds like shooting 120fps (or even 60fps) is pretty much academic, which is disappointing because higher framerates were what I was most excited about. I'm assuming this is a processing speed issue and not a datarate issue, since REDCODE RAW seems to be compressing to sizes well within SATA limits. Personally I'd be happy to pay a couple more grand for a faster CPU that opens up the storage flexibility.

If the 720p statement above is accurate, if you think about it, this isn't much better than the VariCam which can shoot (960 by) 720 at 60p.

Please correct me if I'm reading this wrong.

Still not canceling my order though. :)

Jeremy - RED #68
 
The original specs for the camera didn't do 4k RAW on board. It took a lot of work to fit the amount of processing power for that in camera, and it takes a lot to run that at 30p, and obviously, would be double that for 60p. With 4k you're shoving an awful lot of data around.

However, 2k 60p is recordable on board, and that would blow up to 4k and still look better than any movie being shot in "high def" today, so it's not too bad. Obviously we'd like to do 4k 60p on board, but we want to get the camera out in a reasonable amount of time, with a great featureset and price.

Graeme
 
Uh oh. I was not aware of this.

So for those of us planning to shoot features that might include overcranked shots (48-60fps), we cannot shoot 4k compressed onboard? That would mean that our only option would be to shoot 2k or lower? Is that correct?
 
^^

My thoughts exactly; you can still get 60p in 4k if you use RAID. I don't really see the problem with that for features...on the day you need to shoot high frame rates, get a hold of a raid. Thats the advantage you have with features is planning ahead to have the right equipment. At least thats if you have a good producer :)

The only problem I see is for the ENG folks who wanted on board 60p 4k at the ready for those rare moments...however just as Graeme said, 2k is PLENTY still. That's what I would do anyways.
 
I was under the impression that "onboard" meant the internal flash recording of the camera, not an externally connected drive. Being tethered to a computer is not how most people want to shoot a film. Is 4K 60p not possible with RED-DRIVE or REDFLASH, even when using REDCODE compression?

Also, when you suggest shooting 2K 60p, is that actually shooting in 4K and then downrezzing to 2K in-camera on the fly, or are you talking about windowed mode or some other kind of configuration?
 
kramergfy said:
^^

My thoughts exactly; you can still get 60p in 4k if you use RAID. I don't really see the problem with that for features...on the day you need to shoot high frame rates, get a hold of a raid.
Click to expand...

That doesn't seem like a convenient solution for me, because I will be on location shooting in the deserts and mountains. Is an external raid array going to be expensive? Can I hook it to the RED then shoot steadicam or handheld? How is it tethered?

thanks
 
Would 2K blown up to 4K look better, or 4K with twice the compression?

I would like to shoot everything in 4K and on the camera, and then downsize. It would sure be nice to get higher frame rates if possible, even if compression was optionally lower.

Graeme_Nattress said:
The original specs for the camera didn't do 4k RAW on board. It took a lot of work to fit the amount of processing power for that in camera, and it takes a lot to run that at 30p, and obviously, would be double that for 60p. With 4k you're shoving an awful lot of data around.

However, 2k 60p is recordable on board, and that would blow up to 4k and still look better than any movie being shot in "high def" today, so it's not too bad. Obviously we'd like to do 4k 60p on board, but we want to get the camera out in a reasonable amount of time, with a great featureset and price.

Graeme
Click to expand...
 
jlaurili said:
Would 2K blown up to 4K look better, or 4K with twice the compression?
Click to expand...
Considering they've already shown us an image with twice the compression (the 25x shot), I would assume that twice the compression would hold a lot more detail than 2K blown up.

Remember however that a 4K frame is four times the size of a 2K frame, not two. Would 4K with four times the compression look better than a 2K frame? I don't know.
 
I´am also wondering if it will be possible to shoot with 35mm lenses and save/scale it down to a 2k RAW or RGB or even 1080P? Or is the 35mm lenses constrained to 4k only and the super16 lenses is for 2k windowed?

Soory if Im out of the lopp here, but havne´t got this strait in my head yet.
 
I think the confusion is over 2K scaled vs. 2K windowed. We've heard talk that you can use a 16mm lens and just shoot windowed, but what happens when you're shooting 2K windowed with a 35mm lens?
 
If you shoot 2K windowed with a 35mm lens, you'll double the lens's apparent focal length. That is, if you use a 50mm S35mm lens and shoot 2K windowed, you'll get the equivalent of a 100mm S16mm lens with S16mm DOF.

If you shoot 2K scaled with the same 50mm S35mm lens, you'll get just that... a 50mm S35mm lens with S35mm DOF.

[edit: ignore my DOF comments]
 
Last edited:
The focal length makes sense to me, but the DOF change doesn't. If you shoot a 4K image with a 35mm lens and crop it so you just see the middle part (which is what you're doing with a 2K window, right?) then the DOF hasn't changed - it's the exact same image. You're just seeing less of the picture (which results in an appeared increase in the focal length).
 
But can the RED camera shoot with 35mm lens/4k and scale down in camera to 2k redcode raw? Sometimes you might not want to shoot 4k since it probably will take about double the time thru REDCINE. Just wondering.
Thanks for all the help! This is so insteresting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top