Scarlet Announcement

VGurcu said:
So in my case(event videographer, a zoom lens is a must)) Scarlet is far from cheap.
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Until we know more, I would say that no event videographer should even be thinking that a Scarlet would be appropriate for them. Red is a Digital Cinema Camera Company (says so right on their logo); event videography is pretty much the epitome of "video", and the two aren't the same by any stretch.

Also HD zoom lenses are designed for 3 chips, do we even know that these lenses will fit into a single cheap camera like Scarlet???
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I imagine there will be a B4 adapter... Red has a B4 to PL adapter for the Red One, at $3500.

If Sony produced PMW-350 with a single 2/3 CMOS as opposed to 3, how much cheaper would it be? -Is it even possible?
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They could certainly do it, but don't expect them to. There's pretty much no such thing as a professional broadcast single-chip camera out there, for good reasons. Plus, they wouldn't do it with the existing chip they have, because it's a monochrome chip with no Bayer pattern, and the chip density isn't high enough to get 1080p good results with a single chip. They'd need at least a 3-megapixel chip to produce satisfactory 1080p with.

So -- they're not gonna do it.

Not:Yes you can argue that Scarlet has better functions like higher frame rates & little bit better codec & just a little bit more resolution, but aside from that remember it is after all a single chip camera...And the fixed version has a very limited optical zoom(8x not enough for me)
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The Scarlet has better functions for digital cinema use. Not for videography. It's aimed at a different market.

We'll see if they've made strides towards video as more details are released, but the Red One isn't a video camera and I don't expect the Scarlet to be either. It'll at least have scaled 1080p recording, but in raw, and I don't think you want to be handing over hours of raw footage a day to your client, expecting them to go process it all through RedCine, etc.
 
Starshine Video said:
a little better resolution?? 3k is a huge jump in resolution from HD.
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The imager is 3k but because of things like how the Bayer pattern and OLPF (optical low pass filter to reduce aliasing) work you lose image information. I think Red One's 4k sensor resolves a bit over 3k worth of image detail. So using that as a guide Scarlet would resolve a bit over 2k. So, yes it's more than HD but it's not the massive leap that most people think it is.

Now, w/that being said no current HD camera can actually resolve a full HD image either so w/all things being equal the Scarlet should deliver a noticeably better looking HD image than what people are used to getting from their HD cameras (especially if we take codecs into consideration).


-A

EDIT: And Barry beat me to the punch.
 
adkimery said:
Now, w/that being said no current HD camera can actually resolve a full HD image either so w/all things being equal the Scarlet should deliver a noticeably better looking HD image than what people are used to getting from their HD cameras (especially if we take codecs into consideration).
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And I would dare say that you will see a huge jump in the HD quality image in terms of aliasing and artifacting; the Scarlet should deliver results that are pristine in comparison to DSLR footage.

Of course, there's "should" and there's "does", we'll have to wait to test the shipping version to see if it "does" deliver what it "should". As an ex-Red One owner, I'm pretty confident it will though.
 
Did you guys see the pic of the dslr like hand grip for the scarlet? Looks like it will be easier to hold.
 
ChipG said:
Did you guys see the pic of the dslr like hand grip for the scarlet? Looks like it will be easier to hold.
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can you post a pic? I went looking for it and didn't see it but I did see what is supposed to be the new UI:
1259705913.jpg


purty nice.
 
VGurcu said:
I agree with Stephen.
A proper Scarlet cinema 2/3(interchangeable) camera can easily hit $10K without a prime lens kit. And if you want to add a HD zoom lens you are easily around $20K.
Sony PMW-350 will be sold for $22K that comes with Fujinon 16x HD lens. What is more it has 3x 2/3 CMOS chips, as opposed to 1 CMOS Red Scarlet.
So in my case(event videographer, a zoom lens is a must)) Scarlet is far from cheap.
Also HD zoom lenses are designed for 3 chips, do we even know that these lenses will fit into a single cheap camera like Scarlet???

Here is the $Million question:
If Sony produced PMW-350 with a single 2/3 CMOS as opposed to 3, how much cheaper would it be? -Is it even possible?{ Cause if it is, expect Sony to come up with one before RED.}

Not:Yes you can argue that Scarlet has better functions like higher frame rates & little bit better codec & just a little bit more resolution, but aside from that remember it is after all a single chip camera...And the fixed version has a very limited optical zoom(8x not enough for me)
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I configured a pretty proper Scarlet WITH 4 prime lenses for around 10k.

At any rate... let's try to get a bit more specific with this...

That camera has two versions. With a lens for 22,000 and without for 20,500. So, how much is that lens if you were to buy it (or it's copmarable model) individually. According to that price it is 1,500.

Anyways. Let's configure a real decked out scarlet that should be more than comparable to the i/o's and functionality of the pmw-350.
2750 for the Brain.
300 for a rear module adapter
1250 for a Battery Module
950 for a dual cf rear module
pro i/o module 2950

Right now, we're at 8200. We've got a very comparable system less lens and viewing of some sort.

Now, the 350 doesn't come with a battery. We've got at least two with the above configuration of the Scarlet, so let's keep that in mind as well.

So, we need viewing. pmw-350 uses a 3.5" LCD derived from the ex1/ex3 at 640x480 resolution.

So, how about a 5" 720p touchscreen LCD for the scarlet as a nice substitution? that's 1600.

Now, we're at 9800. Let's go ahead and add a wireless redmote as well. 10,300.

So, how much is that lens that comes with the 350? according to the price differences in the two models offered it's around 1500... At any rate, you've got up to 12 grand you can use towards glass before you get to the price point of the 350.

So, what's different still? (these are obviously going to be 2 very different systems). Well, it's not the Scarlet that doesn't have a tripod adapter. It's the 350. no power supply, either.

Tripod adapter is 221 bucks. a/c adapter/charger is 721. Or, if we wanted a stand-alone charger, we could spend upwards of 1400 - 1700 bucks on one in their list of accessories. They also have a "remote control" unit, that sounds like it would be comparable to the redmote if we wanted to add that. no price.

Now, we can call the 221 for the tripod adapter a wash if we want since scarlet doesn't have a shoulder pad or anything that comes with it. Or, add it and also factor in the cost of a shoulder mount system for the Scarlet.

But, since Scarlet comes with a couple of Batteries, we should also add at least one battery to the 350. There are a few different options for the Sony that range from 618 to 670 bucks. So, we better add that to the cost of the Sony at least.

And, on and on, and on. Point is... You're still going to have to add stuff to the Sony and it's not going to be 22.5k either. Likely at least a few thousand dollars more.

You can take the above configured 10,000 dollar scarlet.... let's just boost it up to 12, grand for arguments sake. any other bells and whistles you want to add... a n expensive 1,000 shoulder mount (but don't forget to then add the tripod adapter to the sony) and a side handle (for another way to control the camera) for example.

We have 10.5 grand to add for lens(es) to the Scarlet still. Do that with your choice... I'm sure you can get a comparable zoom to the one on the sony, plus an entire set of primes and maybe be around the 22.5k mark, or likely less. I'm honestly not sure the rate of a comparable 2/3" fujinon, so I' won't speculate too much on that. Still might want to factor in the added cost of batteries/charger/etc that you will need for the Sony... But, we'll leave that off the list for now and just pretend that you can get a fully working camera for 22.5 with everything you needed.

Anyways... Point is... You now have two VERY different systems that are comparably priced. I see a lot of potential for a variety of glass with the Scarlet to get to that price point though. I also see a llot of potential advantages/disadvantages to each system depending on the person using them and their needs for them.

3k (roughly 2.3K of resolved detail is what it sounds like) RAW at up to REDCODE 100 with a set of 5 very fast prime lenses, and a zoom lens vs. MPEG2 @ 35Mbps(?) 1920 x 1080p. 150fps vs. 60, and a zoom lens, and a whole lot of other differences that would work for some and against others.

Since, we've added a side handle as well as the redmote to the SCarlet, we could also add a side cf module and then have the ability to take it anwhere from compact dslr type configuration to full on shoulder mount config. the pmw350 is stricly shoulder mount, tripod.

Anyways. I'm not trying to say that one is going to be better than the other. Well, one will be for one person, another for another, and so on and so forth.

But, you have to work pretty hard to get up to the base price of the pmw-350 and that's before you've added battery, tripod adapter, charger of some sort, etc to the 350.

And, when you do get two systems that are pretty comparable, they are still very, very different systems that can't be directly compared very easily. All the way down to the way the image is handled off the sensor block. One way isn't necessarily inherently better than the other. And, it's not going to be as simple as you suggest as Sony just taking away 2 of the cmos chips from that set up. Very, very different.

later,
Jason
 
Barry_Green said:
And I would dare say that you will see a huge jump in the HD quality image in terms of aliasing and artifacting; the Scarlet should deliver results that are pristine in comparison to DSLR footage.

Of course, there's "should" and there's "does", we'll have to wait to test the shipping version to see if it "does" deliver what it "should". As an ex-Red One owner, I'm pretty confident it will though.
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This is the big sell for me. However, no one is talking about the supposedly hybrid aspect of these cameras yet.

When I shoot fashion, I don't get to choose the clothes. The stylist does. If they want to do a polka dot or a stripe story, or make it all about sequins, I'm in trouble.

Why?

Because the future of fashion is moving images. There is a growing expectation that we will do both. The role of the photographer is changing. He or she is now an "image-maker" Multimedia is the future. Videographers/broadcasters may actually become photographers in a bizarre case of reverse engineering. Now we know that these are different sensibilities, but they are merging. Cameras are leading the way.

Canon knows this too. They will have to improve the issue surrounding artifacts.

RED of course knows this too. Scarlet is pointed this way (towards photographers and image-makers) and I think the S35 and FF35 have been delayed partially because it is so hard to get a lay of the land on the photo side, not the video aspect. Epic is easy it's pointed towards cinematographers. Scarlet is definitely where things get tricky.

Right now Phase One already has a 65Mp back.

How on earth can RED keep up with that? Hybrid won't hold water for them if the resolution is too low by the time the larger sensors come out. Instant obsolesence.
How do you balance that with an anti-aliasing filter? Very difficult. Only speed and better image processing can overcome this difficulty, which is definitely in RED's favor.

I wouldn't be surprised however, if they eventually scrap the hybrid battle completely in the smaller cameras, and just hand that over to their 645 camera. The problem is that the S35 and FF35 have a medium format form factor. It can't compete with the DSLR's on this front. The natural evolution for a RED hybrid is therefore 645. If that camera can also shoot video with a HUGE sensor, they are all alone with the wind at their backs. Give it fast cinema lenses, which no one else produces and you will have a lot of fashion/commercial people and the right kind of market for RED.

So the theory goes.
 
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yoclay said:
How on earth can RED keep up with that? Hybrid won't hold water for them if the resolution is too low by the time the larger sensors come out. Instant obsolesence.
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Well, if the Red was using a 3mp sensor, I'd agree. But even the 2/3" sensor is 6 megapixel, and the FF version (which is what I would assume a true "hybrid" shooter would want, right?) should have 6K mode, IIRC... which would mean somewhere around 21+ megapixels, so it shouldn't be too bad at all when it comes to stills performance. The 1D Mark IV is about 18 megapixels, isn't it? Not saying the Red will equal it, but saying that at least the raw resolution should be comparable with a decent stills camera.

How do you balance that with an anti-aliasing filter? Very difficult.
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Not for Red though, because they use the same AA for stills and video. So there's no trickly line to dance. They get mediocre stills out of the smaller chips (if you think 6-megapixel stills would qualify as mediocre) but as the chips get bigger, the stills performance catches up. Red's unique in that they don't sacrifice video performance to optimize still performance.
 
I totally agree Barry, but the form factor is a problem. The natural evolution will be to 645 for the camera if it stays in this hybrid market. Most fashion guys shoot 35 because of the form factor. If they have to have a box that handles like a medium format camera, then they want the more megapixels that go with it.

Journalists will not be using the scarlet out in the field, too cumbersome and complex. The DSLR's have the advantage there. This is why Canon specifically mentioned the 5D was for journalists. Thus hybrid for RED is for a different animal. Someone commercial or fashion for instance. Yet why shoot 21Mp stills when with the same form factor when you can do 65Mp? More suitable for advertising/billboard. However if I am paying $30,000 for a back, I would definitely take a 45MP one that shoots video. Rental houses then would have two potential revenue streams.

I wouldn't be surprised if Phase One isn't already working on something.

Mark my words. Hybrid is going Medium format.
 
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ChipG said:
Is this correct? What you posted sure looks about the size of an hvx200 lcd which is 3.5 inches not 2.5 inches.
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Yeah - that seemed a bit too large to me as well -
I tried resizing the same pic in photoshop to a 2.8" diagonal, and this is what I got:

REDlcd.jpg
 
Did anyone else notice that there were price changes in the announcement over night?

Redmote from $500 to $550
2.8" LCD from $800 to $900
Battery module when from $1,000-$1,700 to $1,250
 
Non-issue

Non-issue

Is it just me or are all the so called "announcements" from Red getting a bit ridiculous? Lets have an announcement about an upcoming announcement to announce proposed release dates. I'm not trying to bash Red (I still rent the R1 quite often) but come on. I've been following Red every day for the past 2 years and literally read every post. These guys shift their story every month. First it's a delay due to the economy, then there is a halt on releasing news because of the "competition" and now they state that they are transparent with their development but they have cryptic specs and still no test footage. I would be willing to bet that they won't deliver a camera before 2011 and when it does deliver, it won't have the proposed specs we see today. Are you listening Canon? Put the 5d sensor in a ENG rig with real ergo and IO and I'm sure you'd make a killing. Panasonic? Refine the GH1 sensor and put it in a real rig. I'm sure most of us would be willing to deal with the workflow and issues of these sensors if we could just BUY them today. I for one would buy it. Forgive the rant...this is just my 2 cents.
 
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I'm pretty skeptical that we will see S35 in June. At least a full year out in my opinion. FF35? Who knows?
 
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