Scarlet Announcement

[Luis Caffesse]

Stupidly cheap compared to what? I was responding to someone saying EX1, 5D MkII's, GH1s and 7D would be dumped for Scarlets. It's clearly not stupidly cheap compared to those.

It's only stupidly cheap compared to $20k cam - that buys a pretty nice 2/3" camera these days.

You seem to be calling it 'cheap' or 'expensive' based solely on price, not taking into account features.

The Scarlet and the EX1 are completely different cameras - as are the 7D and the EX1, etc etc. You can't simply compare them on price, you have to compare the features and abilities of each.

For many, the Scarlet will be 'stupidly cheap' - because those features which seperate it from the EX1, and other cams, are important to them.

By the same argument you're making, I could say that the EX1 is crazy expensive compared to a 7D. They both shoot 1080, and the 7D has a 35mm sized sensor... so why would anyone get an EX1?

Just playing devil's advocate there to prove a point.
On top of all this is the other thing that everyone seems to continually forget - which is that buying a Scarlet is not simply buying a static camera...it's buying into the modular camera system. For some that's not a good thing - but for many, its groundbreaking.

 

[chrislancaster]

Not necessarily! Depends on what it actually does (which, of course, we still don't know the full extent) and what it would cost to do that with other equipment.

How many DSLRs can shoot 150fps? How many video cameras can shoot 150fps? Scarlet might be the cheapest 150fps camera on the market.

How many 2/3" cameras are on the market at anywhere less than $8,000? Scarlet's half that.

150 fps is really cool thats good for scarlet but you cant even mount it to a tripod without spending more money.

So for 4750 you get a handheld box with a 8x zoom fixed lens that is very limited in its own ways.

LOL I will probably buy a scarlet and drop over 10 K on it. I am not trying to be negative just weighing the pros and cons.

It seems to be in your nature to be helpful and try to bring out the best in things so some of us take advantage of that but its all in fun.

Loving the options they are pretty insane! :grin:

 

[Stephen Mick]

The good thing is, in about seven months, we MIGHT have an answer to all of the questions and speculation. And, who knows, we might even get to see footage sometime before then. And I'll be as interested as anyone to see what Scarlet can do, as opposed to judging and speculating what it might do or what it might end up costing.

Is 150fps epic-awesomeness for (lets say) $5K? Hellz yeah.
Is 2/3" a deal-breaker for some? Maybe. Less so for others, including myself.

In my mind, if it arrives as a "digital cinema camera" without the usability or convenience of cameras like the HPX170 and EX1, I'll pass. But if it delivers RED quality, in a compact (ergonomically workable) form factor, with a workflow that makes my shooting life easier, I'll be waiting in line to buy one.

Until more information comes along to answer my questions and address my needs, I'll be busy shooting and editing. Someone wake me up when there's more than just pictures on a white cyc and specs that could change at any time.

 

[stephenvv]

Well, resolution is fixed -- it can resolve what it can resolve.

Not necessarily - resolution varies with motion cameras (e.g. Adam Wilt's wobble rez test) as well as with noise, lens issues etc. The 7D clearly has something going on with aliasing based on angle of lines in camera (see my moire test - it's very clear resolution is variable there).

Yeah, but -- it also does 150fps! It also takes stereo input. It also has the ability to send a separate monitor output while keeping the onboard working. Plus pure resolution, no aliasing, more dynamic range, etc.

150fps vs 60fps is nice but hardly worth the cost difference as I don't crave that level of slo-mo very often and I get very good 120fps from 60fps via Twixtor.

Stereo input could not care less. I've been shooting double system with Zoom 4Hn and love it - better way to shoot especially with Plural Eyes autosync software.

Seperate monitor - nice, but I'm hoping for a new Canon body by the time this ships with at least that feature if not more.

No aliasing is good but I have a few hours of 7D in the can with not a single shot bothered by aliasing. Dynamic range - well, not tested yet. That could be a compelling feature but 2/3" noise issues may mean not nearly as good. Jury's out.

So, in answer to your question - for me, Scarlet as announced is interesting, but I sum it up as "competition not revolution". Thus, unless nothing happens video DSLR wise by the time Scarlet ships and it ships as a home run, I can't imagine stepping back to 2/3" sensor and or fixed lens camera.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

But is the 2/3" vs. 35mm a dealbreaker?

Not in the least for me. Low on my list of priorities. Many, many other things that trump that for me, and you've named a good deal of them in your previous post.

I've got my calculator and I know what kind of DoF I'll be getting at x focal length at x f-stop, at x distance from the lens

Or is the prospect of cheap 35mm with problems, a more tantalizing prospect than relatively problem-free 2/3", especially when the 2/3" costs 3x as much?

Not for me. but again... that's b/c sensor size is not at the top of my list of priorities.

 

[chrislancaster]

I have to ask was anyone surprised by the size of the scarlet?

it is a lot smaller than I thought it would be. I can see pros and cons to that as well.

It looks to be about half the size of the red one. I dont know more speculation but thats all we have anyway.

 

[stephenvv]

You seem to be calling it 'cheap' or 'expensive' based solely on price, not taking into account features.

No, it's simply a matter of reality for many buyers that there are absolutely price points they can't move beyond. So while EX1 and 7D are very different cameras, they fall into a hard price point that determines buyers and sales.

Scarlet won't succeed without a healthy number of buyers in the given market segment. That means EX1, 5D, HVX, HPX 170, HMC series etc. buyers.

I think Scarlet is only "stupidly cheap" compared to other 2/3" video camera right now. And it's not shipping until next summer at the earliest. It does not seem like a crazy stretch that Panasonic, JVC or Sony could release a $10k (with lens) 2/3" camera with 120 fps by next summer.

The 2/3" Scarlet was originally presented by Red as revolution in low budget motion picture cameras. If it had shipped at end of last year, it would be be.

Now, it's just another camera - interesting and hopefully high quality but it's far too late already to grab the indie world the way the Red One did or the prosumer world the way the DVX/HV20-30-40 or video DSLR's have).

 

[Jason Ramsey]

I look at it's price vs. performance and feature set. That's how I come to a determination of whether it is a good value or not (For what I am looking for). And, for the things that I'm looking for... yes... I see it as a very good value in price : performance.

There are 7d owners who were shooting on 10,000 dollar rigs prior. there are also 7d owners who stretched themselves to move from an HV20 to a 7d.

You are right. It is just another camera. For me, it's looking like a great deal for what I am looking for. For you, it's "expensive".

When I look at features that are important to me, I look at the price point of other camera's that include some of those features. Scarlet is "stupidly cheap" for ME, for what I'm looking for. For someone who cares heavily about sensor size and "can't see going back to 2/3"", then yeah... it's expensive b/c that's what is important to them and they can get 1600 dollar 7d for that if that's at or near the top of their list.

Later,
Jason

 

[Max Smith]

No, it's simply a matter of reality for many buyers that there are absolutely price points they can't move beyond. So while EX1 and 7D are very different cameras, they fall into a hard price point that determines buyers and sales.

Scarlet won't succeed without a healthy number of buyers in the given market segment. That means EX1, 5D, HVX, HPX 170, HMC series etc. buyers.

I think Scarlet is only "stupidly cheap" compared to other 2/3" video camera right now. And it's not shipping until next summer at the earliest. It does not seem like a crazy stretch that Panasonic, JVC or Sony could release a $10k (with lens) 2/3" camera with 120 fps by next summer.

The 2/3" Scarlet was originally presented by Red as revolution in low budget motion picture cameras. If it had shipped at end of last year, it would be be.

Now, it's just another camera - interesting and hopefully high quality but it's far too late already to grab the indie world the way the Red One did or the prosumer world the way the DVX/HV20-30-40 or video DSLR's have).

Actually this was the point of my original post. It's that market range, and maybe higher if you include Sony's upcoming PMW 350, that gets squeezed considerably if and when RED delivers what it just announced.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

I have to ask was anyone surprised by the size of the scarlet?

it is a lot smaller than I thought it would be. I can see pros and cons to that as well.

Yeah, that kind of took me by surprise as well.
I thought it was quite a bit bigger than that side by side with the D3 reveals it to be.

 

[Isaac_Brody]

It was nice to get prices and specs but I have to admit I'll only get excited when they start to deliver cameras. They say Summer 2010, which given the history of changes and hiccups that could happen between now and then reads more like 2011.

I would love to start a betting pool for when people think the Scarlet S35 will ship. I'm thinking 2011.

There's one thing I wish would change, design. This cold black military design while intimidating is starting to feel dated. This is where I wish Red would take a design clue from apple. I'm guessing that will be a 500 dollar module I'll have to buy for a smooth practical handle that won't gouge me when holding it.

 

[ethan cooper]

I think Red learned some lessons the hard way this past year. I'd bet the proposed dates are within a month or two.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

I think Red learned some lessons the hard way this past year. I'd bet the proposed dates are within a month or two.

Let's hope - but things change, things go wrong, etc....
fingers crossed.

 

[Isaac_Brody]

Red just had an ASIC delay that affected delivery of tattoo cameras. They've been up front and said that they're adding more features which will make things more complicated. Plenty that can go wrong and will go wrong between now and Summer.

And of course by next Summer there's a very good chance the next round of VDSLR's will be out. GH2, or whatever it's called will probably improve on the current issues we've all hashed to death. Gotta love progress.

I have no doubt when Red delivers the quality will be awesome and I bet it will have plenty of flaws for us to pick over. I'm just not sure the quality difference will be worth the extra 6 - 7 thousand versus a GH2/7D3/5DIII. If they sort out the aliasing and downrezzing issues a lot of folks won't see the need to spend 10K on a Scarlet kit.

 

[stip]

There's one thing I wish would change, design. This cold black military design while intimidating is starting to feel dated. This is where I wish Red would take a design clue from apple.

Agree with every line.
I love the plain design of Ikonoskop's A-Cam dII.

 

[chrislancaster]

Something that bothers me about RED ..


The Red One is a revolutionary camera it's ridiculously good IMO .. when its used right it is amazing.



Why destroy or discontinue it ? I understand epic is suppose to be better but it's not a ONE and sometimes in reality specs are not better.

Why not sell it for a discount?

 

[greymog]

Agree with every line.
I love the plain design of Ikonoskop's A-Cam dII.

It's funny how that, in a field like film, a technical limit may mature into tradition. I am not sure, I am new, but I read that 24 fps was as far as the machines could go back in the day, and the resulting look became trademark over the years.

I'm not disputing 24fps, other options have been tried, and most people have spoken.

Yet the box itself, the basic ergonomic of a camera that shoots video, AFAIK, has never been put to hard scrutiny.

A RED is still a box, from a design point of view. Ikonoskop have realized the importance of size, and simplicity to describe efficiency. Apple's statement was one button instead of two, then no button eventually.

Everyone's getting gestural. Minority report would be the most obvious example of gestural control, the KAOSS pad a more niche example, to the audio heads.

I read once about some project in redesigning fully the camera's ergonomic, and it's a wild idea, but thought I'd share for funsies, and in just maybe trying to push some thoughts into the dark way past what we take for granted and/or tradition as far as a camera's design, ergonomically.

Much like with work that isn't intended for distribution, you can do whatever you want. This post isn't geared toward anything materializing i'm just thinking, but myself and some colleagues spoke about possibly wearing a 2/3" against a viewfinder, and mounting that 'brain' as it has been coined, either conventionally or on the body.

Control would be the interesting part in affecting design. If control was something other than tactile, then form can be scrutinized. As long as there's a button to push, as long as there's a focus wheel to turn, control will govern the form of our tools.

If control was gestural, and the display (menu status monitor etc) was fed to an EVF, worn on the body (think martin margiela's incognito pilot not x-men lol) , and say, the cyberglove (this is something available) or any gestural control device, we'll say the gloves, you'll find that the shape necessary for handling a camera can change dramatically.

This all came up and stayed on paper and on my blog as just a thought for a good few months after a friend said, 'no buttons', and another said, 'i don't wanna hold anything'.

It's really far fetched, but out of all manufacturers out there, RED can have the balls to try a new crack at control. They're trying a new crack at picture, once that's well on it's way as a standard maybe the next step would be to change the way we learn to shoot. Another language on the cv. In the classrooms.

The technology is there, the approach to most specialty audio MIDI controllers has become very gestural. I read about this glove somewhere, and it's very interesting how it works, changing value as you bend each finger.

This can result in combinations, or a language, to operate the machinery, and say control focus or frame rate during recording on one hand, rolling and cutting with the other. A fist is 24 fps, hand spread out would be 150, so just open your hand as you keep your eye on the ball when you want your ramp.

Most of all, scrutinizing the control aspect at the root of design and goin gestural (if it can possibly work) would mean in effect, putting the camera's functions into character, with human response. Like a DJ on a MIDI fader cutting a few bars live. As he moves the switches, the volume envelope changes etc.

I've been trying to make this work with a few friends with the help of the Apertus team. They've been working on an open source 2/3" sensor that shoots RAW. It's good enough for me spec wise as how its running to try and make this work. We spoke, they sent me parts, and I began tinkering obliviously (as I am not a tech person, my background is in design and audio), and I have yet to find a feasible solution to doin something different before I hit them up for real parts and not 3d ones.

This is a sidetrack, but in a discussion where for the first time, a manufacturer is kinda expected to change the fundamental ergonomic in a way that'll surprise us, but we still have a box. We expect this of RED coz of their 'amazing' factor, and the whole revolution approach.

I dunno, what do you think? Quite the ramble, but what could RED possibly do to change control? is control something that governs the shape indefinitely? if changed can it put form into question? do other factors make for the same shape regardless of control ie balance weight etc? I think control is important, and has become tradition.

I hate to say it, but focus pullers will have a fit at a change like this for the short term till they learn new control.

Please excuse me I keep making rambly posts like this, but wanted to share this thought. It's way too wild, and it's coming from someone who is really new at this, but i think i could be on to something, and RED really are the only people I think that can muster up something like this.

RED Gestural control. No buttons, Nothing to hold. The camera's functions in character if need be.

Some little bean like thing with a mount that can be stuck anywhere and is tiny. Something you can wear? REDSUIT?

Jesus I post now I could go on forever

T

 

[Zacatac]

The scarlet is like a film camera, you don't grab one and put it on your shoulder, yes, they've made the Aaton easily shoulder mountable, but if you want scarlet to go handheld, you need the addons.... film companies have been doing it for years

 

[Barry_Green]

In my mind, if it arrives as a "digital cinema camera" without the usability or convenience of cameras like the HPX170 and EX1, I'll pass. But if it delivers RED quality, in a compact (ergonomically workable) form factor, with a workflow that makes my shooting life easier, I'll be waiting in line to buy one.

Agreed. Except that I might just choke down whatever the price increase is and go for the S35 version, but other than that I agree completely.

Until more information comes along to answer my questions and address my needs, I'll be busy shooting and editing. Someone wake me up when there's more than just pictures on a white cyc and specs that could change at any time.

I heart Stephen Mick.

 

[Barry_Green]

Actually this was the point of my original post. It's that market range, and maybe higher if you include Sony's upcoming PMW 350, that gets squeezed considerably if and when RED delivers what it just announced.

Not necessarily. It depends on what it costs to configure it to do what the video cameras do. The Red One isn't a video camera. I don't expect the Scarlet to be either, although they may surprise us. (I'm kind of "counting on it").