GH5 S1H's total cost is adding up to Varicam family of cams

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

I'm taking a close critical look at the actual cost of a working S1H vs a Varicam LT. Although the body is about $4K, the needed core accessories such as a shoulder rig, outdoor VF, outdoor Small HD montior, ND filters, XLR, several L lenses are approaching to about $14K. I'm not too comfortable with Vari ND filters. There has to be a optical performance cost for convenience. On top of the numerous add-on accessories, the setup time to assemble accessories is time consuming. I rather get a ready to shoot Varicam LT or 35 and be done with it fast L lens selection is limited to normal use. With this in mind, I only see the S1H has a big advantage on gimbal, underwater housing, roaming monopod shooting, shooting at super tight spaces, and hi-res stills. The current market value cost is about $6.5K for a bare bone shooting package S1H w/ 24-70/2.8 Panasonic L mount lens. This is as-is and no other options added to the camera except the SDHC, light weight tripod.

I'm not sure if the S1H can do Cinestyle file naming convention found on the Varicam family of cams and auto increment each reel every time card is formatted. That's itself is an invaluable media organization feature.

S1H will save on expensive $1.8K Express P2 512 Gb media, gold mount batteries, heavy duty tripod...

 

[karma17]

Yeah, it all adds up. It sort of reminds me how I felt when I got the Black Magic Cinema Camera, not only did I need a bunch of accessories (external batteries, pre-amps, EVF, etc), the rig itself started looking a little insane and was hardly what I would call run and gun. I'm just taking a really long view and figure that by 2024, I will be able to pick up a used S1H for about $1,000, so I'll just have to get by with my GH5 for now.

 

[ahalpert]

Better off getting the S1H just for gimbal/b-cam so you don't need all the accessories? Adapt lenses or use their 24-105.

I bought the S1/24-105 a month ago to improve on the low-light capabilities of my GH5 and I love it, though obviously it lacks the codec firepower of the S1H.

 

[wwjd]

hmmmm... I think ANY camera you can accessorize to the sky. You included Lenses in your outfitting. That could be 2 to 10g right there. That is the same on any camera not really an s1h problem. Are you starting with nothing? You don't have to start at the midrange level out of the gate. Could go cheaper, could go ARRI.

I was looking at the S1H real costs too... already have most parts, just need more batteries, maybe an extra card or two, $5000 tops, done.

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

The rig and setup time took about 45m to 1 hr for every location arrived. This is the actual time with a previous production I'm with using the Sony A7s. After 2 months, daily 12 hours of shooting, small dust got into the sensor. Something that can't be seen until dailies are carefully looked at. A hard look at the S1H tells me that I can only maximize the camera for using without much added accessories. Otherwise it'll be more efficient to get a full form factor cam like the Varicam series. The way I see it now is to pay all upfront for the Varicam LT/35 or get the S1H and pay gradually at the cost of added setup times and other limitations.

Changing lenses is extremely difficult in public shooting places for 1-man crew and run and gun type. There are so many times where I wish I can have a 24-600mm/2.8 or a 200-1000mm/2.8 zoom. That'll not going happen due to optical physics limits. A 1000mm zoom will probably be about 12-15 lbs. No thanks. So I have to pay even more for have 2 cam ops on 2 S1H bodies with a wide and tele range focal length as a workaround.

Adding XLR audio on top of the shoe mount will be another interesting challenge. It's making it even harder to hold the S1H w/ out external support like a shoulder rig or tripod. And overtime the hotshoe mount will break off...

I was about to order earlier this week the S1H and now reconsidering if it's worth it or not. At this point, it's actually much costing more than the initial $4K for the body.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Adding XLR audio on top of the shoe mount will be another interesting challenge. It's making it even harder to hold the S1H w/ out external support like a shoulder rig or tripod. And overtime the hotshoe mount will break off...

This has not been an issue with the GH5, which uses the same module.

Don't see how it would be for the S1H either.

 

[TheDingo]

I was about to order earlier this week the S1H and now reconsidering if it's worth it or not. At this point, it's actually much costing more than the initial $4K for the body.

It sounds like you are trying to turn the S1H into a Varicam LT, which is going to be expensive and not as quick to set-up as just starting with a Varicam LT in the first place. If you can afford it, buying a Varicam LT might be the better solution for you, but outfitting the LT with the same gear ( especially if you opt for the Panasonic Varicam EVF ) is going to put you in the $20K+ price range. ( or you just rent it )

I've been shooting with small mirrorless cameras since 2012, and I treat them as small mirrorless cameras, so I would not want to rig them up like a Varicam because it's an inefficient way to shoot with them. If I ever needed a Varicam set-up or something like an ARRI Mini, I would just rent them for the project and be done with it. ( rigging a mirrorless camera into something it was not designed to be, might not be the best idea )

 

[mcbob]

The main problem might be treating your late 2019 Top-of-the-line DSLM like it has all the usability problems of a 2010 DSLR.

DSLMs' main strengths are mobility, flexibility, and of course the ability to take really nice photos when necessary. With the pretty strong IBIS systems most makers are employing, I think they need less and less rigging to be useable in a handheld fashion... or rather, the way to hold them might be rethought. IMO all these shoulder contraptions mostly serve to throw the center of gravity way off and increase chiropractor visits.

My favored way with an IBIS-equipped DSLM is to plop it in a cage with a side handle, and a neck strap... extend the camera so the strap is taut, providing two points of contact... then just manipulate the camera with the main handle and left cage handle, or top handle with your other hand cradling the camera and manipulating focus from underneath.

Of course, if the camera has really good built-in EVF (as the S1H does... I know, it's the same one my A7R4 has), just putting it up to your eye like it was designed isn't a bad way to support it at all... three points of contact and good monitoring.

Another "rig" that works is a simple Gorillapod (the big one, whichever that one is). Form two of the legs like a "y" with one leg going over each shoulder, holding the camera right in front of your face. The third leg can either be used as a handle or can arch down to form another solid point of contact on your sternum.

A Prius makes an awesome 1-2 person commuter vehicle, but is lousy at towing a boat with a family of 6.

 

[Thomas Smet]

I will never understand the obsession to take a small compact camera and rig it up to be an ergonomic nightmare. If you want the bigger form factor then just get that. The small cameras are designed to be small and stay small. These cameras are not meant to be a cheaper alternative as much as they are meant to be a modular alternative. Modular meaning you get to choose what stuff you add on and pay for vs getting the $20k camera as is.

Not every person needs all the extra stuff and that modular nature is what can make these cameras a more affordable option. For example one that already owns EF lenses can buy a S1H body and a $250 adapter and for $4,250 all set to produce some amazing stuff. Anybody that owns a collection of EF lenses likely also already has a tripod and other support gear they needed over the years.

The S1H is an expensive path for sure and its the body and L mount lenses that prevent me from jumping in. The other stuff doesn't really factor in because any small form factor camera needs that stuff. Doesn't a Varicam also need a tripod and slider and most of that support gear to get different types of shots? The Varicam doesn't have IBIS and actually needs that stuff even more. Cranes, sliders, tripods and so forth likely also need to be of a higher grade to support the size and weight. Nobody sticks a Varicam on a $50 tripod from Walmart for example. The Varicam also needs lenses and is virtually an expensive boat anchor without lenses. EF lenses are cheaper than L mount lenses but you can also use EF lenses on the S1H bringing the cost of entry to about equal.

Really the only piece of gear one needs that the Varicam does not need is a should rig and audio adapter. Thats even assuming one uses a shoulder setup. Lots of productions never leave a tripod. Audio adapters also don't have to break the bank so I'm not exactly sure why a S1H package would be significantly more than any other DSLR minus the L mount lenses and expensive body.

 

[Mitch Gross]

It sounds like for you and the way you prefer to use your gear that a VariCam LT or perhaps a mildly accessorized EVA1 would be a better choice.

There's a reason we offer different modes. Horses for courses.

 

[DLD]

FWIW, there are all sorts of less expensive alternatives for support : Easy Rig types, gimbals, steadicams, etc.

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

I already own the VC HS and 35. Love them but it is very difficult to shoot on remote locations. It is so heavy that i have to walk 4 times to first carry the tripod and then then heavy 30 lbs cam and lens. Good workout on the body but lost 3 hours per day for transporting. The VC-LT will save about 8-10 lbs of weight while retaining the pro features of the VC35 and HS. The absent of ND wheel on the S1H is a deal breaker. I dont think VariND filters will have the same quality as the VC's internal nd. Will have to forget servo focus, zoom and long lenses with the S1H. Servo focus is huge when it is near freezing. Wearing thick gloves wont cut it vs turning a big focus knob for focus and zoom. Without gloves frostbite will ensue. Those knobs are fully functional with gloves. Majority of my shoots I can't come back and pick up another cam for the job. Already spent thousands on Express P2 B series cards, Thunderbolt 3 readers. The LT is looking more viable than the EVA1. Retaining the same workflow on the VC35 is important.

 

[Thomas Smet]

I already own the VC HS and 35. Love them but it is very difficult to shoot on remote locations. It is so heavy that i have to walk 4 times to first carry the tripod and then then heavy 30 lbs cam and lens. Good workout on the body but lost 3 hours per day for transporting. The VC-LT will save about 8-10 lbs of weight while retaining the pro features of the VC35 and HS. The absent of ND wheel on the S1H is a deal breaker. I dont think VariND filters will have the same quality as the VC's internal nd. Will have to forget servo focus, zoom and long lenses with the S1H. Servo focus is huge when it is near freezing. Wearing thick gloves wont cut it vs turning a big focus knob for focus and zoom. Without gloves frostbite will ensue. Those knobs are fully functional with gloves. Majority of my shoots I can't come back and pick up another cam for the job. Already spent thousands on Express P2 B series cards, Thunderbolt 3 readers. The LT is looking more viable than the EVA1. Retaining the same workflow on the VC35 is important.

Well if you need something more compact then keep it compact. Realistically the camera on its own can do a lot. since it is smaller you can use a more affordable tripod or use one you already own so no cost there either. You likely also own a pile of EF lenses since you are already shooting with the VC. So realistically your cost of investment is a $4k body and a $250 EF adapter. And maybe a tripod if you want something a bit more compact than a tripod you already have for the VC.

If you absolutely must record audio into the S1H you can easily get an audio device for $250. That puts your total at $4,500 or vastly less than a Varicam LT. You can probably get a halfway decent should rig as well for another $500 or less which puts your highest cost at $5k for quality equal if not better than what the Varicams can put out.

 

[Thomas Smet]

I already own the VC HS and 35. Love them but it is very difficult to shoot on remote locations. It is so heavy that i have to walk 4 times to first carry the tripod and then then heavy 30 lbs cam and lens. Good workout on the body but lost 3 hours per day for transporting. The VC-LT will save about 8-10 lbs of weight while retaining the pro features of the VC35 and HS. The absent of ND wheel on the S1H is a deal breaker. I dont think VariND filters will have the same quality as the VC's internal nd. Will have to forget servo focus, zoom and long lenses with the S1H. Servo focus is huge when it is near freezing. Wearing thick gloves wont cut it vs turning a big focus knob for focus and zoom. Without gloves frostbite will ensue. Those knobs are fully functional with gloves. Majority of my shoots I can't come back and pick up another cam for the job. Already spent thousands on Express P2 B series cards, Thunderbolt 3 readers. The LT is looking more viable than the EVA1. Retaining the same workflow on the VC35 is important.

Honestly it sounds like you are answering your own question.

You want lighter and more compact but are not willing to give up the control. Welcome to the harsh reality we live in. If you need something easy to control with gloves then I'm afraid to say but the S1H may not be the solution for you then. It really sounds like you need to just use the gear you have. It may be a ton of stuff to haul but we haul the gear we need because we need it and no other gear will do the job well.

Sure you may get lucky and some shoots work out well but it sounds like you can't accept getting lucky. Don't take a risk.

Invest in a sled or cart to help you haul your gear around or hire an assistant to shlep the gear around. That will likely be a better investment for you than a camera you will never be satisfied with in the conditions you shoot in.

 

[icarusfilm]

+1

the days of rigging dslrs into shoulder mounted cameras are really behind us (sorry zacuto) back then you either had the cash for a RED or Alexa OR a frankenrigged 5DII. Today there are a plethora of sub 10k cameras to choose from all of them are good enough for almost anything. The S1H unique appeal is that you can (and should) keep it small and light. if you need a varicam LT then get one- if you can't afford it them it means you don't need it.

I will never understand the obsession to take a small compact camera and rig it up to be an ergonomic nightmare. If you want the bigger form factor then just get that. The small cameras are designed to be small and stay small. These cameras are not meant to be a cheaper alternative as much as they are meant to be a modular alternative. Modular meaning you get to choose what stuff you add on and pay for vs getting the $20k camera as is.

Not every person needs all the extra stuff and that modular nature is what can make these cameras a more affordable option. For example one that already owns EF lenses can buy a S1H body and a $250 adapter and for $4,250 all set to produce some amazing stuff. Anybody that owns a collection of EF lenses likely also already has a tripod and other support gear they needed over the years.

The S1H is an expensive path for sure and its the body and L mount lenses that prevent me from jumping in. The other stuff doesn't really factor in because any small form factor camera needs that stuff. Doesn't a Varicam also need a tripod and slider and most of that support gear to get different types of shots? The Varicam doesn't have IBIS and actually needs that stuff even more. Cranes, sliders, tripods and so forth likely also need to be of a higher grade to support the size and weight. Nobody sticks a Varicam on a $50 tripod from Walmart for example. The Varicam also needs lenses and is virtually an expensive boat anchor without lenses. EF lenses are cheaper than L mount lenses but you can also use EF lenses on the S1H bringing the cost of entry to about equal.

Really the only piece of gear one needs that the Varicam does not need is a should rig and audio adapter. Thats even assuming one uses a shoulder setup. Lots of productions never leave a tripod. Audio adapters also don't have to break the bank so I'm not exactly sure why a S1H package would be significantly more than any other DSLR minus the L mount lenses and expensive body.

 

[filmguy123]

lthough the body is about $4K, the needed core accessories such as a shoulder rig, outdoor VF, outdoor Small HD montior, ND filters, XLR, several L lenses are approaching to about $14K.

Agree with Thomas and Mitch.

Frankly, IMO, if you're kitting out an S1H like this you're doing it wrong. Buy an EVA1 or Varicam, they are better suited. The S1H is for people who wish they could rip off all the extra accessories away from those cameras - not add them on!! I use my S1H's built in screen and record internal to SD cards, handheld for most things. IMO adding all of those accessories defeats the whole point of the design.

Why not just do EVA1?

 

[filmguy123]

As a side note I think it's easy to get hung up on perceived "quality dips". If you read too much you go crazy.

In theory on a forum, the quality dip of using a Variable ND or 10-bit 422 is unworkable. In reality, most of the time I'm hard pressed to really discern any meaningful difference between a VND and internal VND (except in extreme scenarios where they are pushed too hard) or 10-bit 420 vs 10-bit 422, or my latest, a short run 3.5mm audio cable feed vs an XLR feed. It's splitting hairs and it's easy to obsess on this more than is beneficial.

I also don't understand the odd sentiment that seems to be new here with L mount. For years people on this very forum have raved about M43 mount because you can adapt anything to it. The exact same thing is true with the L mount, I can run glass my EVA1 can't run. It's great. No one has ever seemed that concerned about native glass, but now that AF is a thing, everyone rags on the L mount because the glass is expensive. Outside of AF needs, though, I just don't get it. Why do you need L mount glass? You can't be that concerned with AF if you are also considering a Varicam... just use an MC-21 EF adapter?

 

[icarusfilm]

This s how I use the S1H:

I have a leica M-L macro adapter that allows me to use zeiss ZM primes made for Leica. I have the Zeiss 35mm 1.4zm, the ZM 50mm f2 and the ZM 85mm f4. all three lenses put together weigh maybe a pound. I use a B+W MRC Variable ND its very high quality but I only use it as a "dimmer" I have 3 ND's on magnetic mounts that can jump on and off a Formatt Firecrest 1.2, 1.5 and a 1.8 to provide the main ND down.
I feed Timecode rom a tentacle directly into the TC port thats syncs with either my Lectro PDRs lav recorders or a mixer thats my whole Audio solution and a saramonic camera powered mic for ambient/scratch sound.

 

[lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com]

A very mobile setup. I can imagine you can get much more shots per day than the VC Lt or 35. Can easily slip through malls and protected cities without time consuming permits.

 

[icarusfilm]

Thats exactly the idea. I shoot a lot of docs and this enables me to shoot all day handheld unnoticed. its super low key but without compromising anything.

QUOTE=lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com;1986807720]A very mobile setup. I can imagine you can get much more shots per day than the VC Lt or 35. Can easily slip through malls and protected cities without time consuming permits.[/QUOTE]