Roi

[Brian_Rice]

I've got a couple of different things going on at various stages, but this newest one has left me in a bit of a conundrum.

I'm putting together something that's pretty unique and that I think fits perfectly with the web. I'd actually *prefer* to do it as a web-based show. The problem with the web, though, is that ROI is pretty dismal.

Since it's an on-going storyline, an idea I had was to do the first "season" (a short feature broken into slabs) free of charge and then do a $.50/$1.00 per episode for the second season. I've seen this work pretty successfully for downloadable comics and other content. And, obviously, DVDs of the first season feature could produce some revenues.

There's no risk of financial loss (only time) for the first season, but I would want the production to eventually yield some revenue (certainly for the 2nd installment).

I know we're all navigating the pay-for-content and how exactly to manage it. How do you see this kind of thing fleshing out?

Again, the concept is universally different than anything else that's being offered in any other webseries (not just saying that), and I think I have a pretty strong target audience with the gamer and comic book crowds -- customers who are usually pretty good about paying for content (sans the anime peeps).

Feedback?

:love4:

 

[Brian_Rice]

Just wanted to throw this out there as well --

First season's free.

Second season is sold as feature. So one time download or DVD.

You could then actually say in your web show titles "FREE: Episode One: The Gnarly Horse Rod", "FREE: Episode Two: The Dancing Ninny" and so on, thus inferring that eventually things will not be "Free". (E.g. in this case, for something to be free something associated with it must cost something).

You can continue to promote the show while making "Season 2", and then start putting out your trailers, etc, so that, essentially, the first season of your show is for people to get the full bodied flavor. And, if they like it and want more, it's available to them. If they don't, then, ya know, you didn't do your job.

Even if by the end of your series you only had 5,000 consistent viewers, that's still potential money in the bank.

Also, I think if you can actually show companies that your show is being purchased by people, that could give you an edge in getting funded for future series.



ADD: Also, if you wanted to be SUPER UPFRONT GUY, you could actually say in each episode's desciption a sort of DISCLAIMER that reads: We have hopes that TITLE will find corporate sponsorship. However, if it does not, future seasons will be packaged as complete downloads or DVDs for sale. Thanks again so much for your support! (or, in the past tense) We had hoped that TITLE would find corporate sponsorship after its first season. However, since it has not, we've had to offer Season 2 as complete downloads or DVDs for sale online. We've put our blood, sweat and tears into this project. Hopefully you understand. Thanks again so much for your support -- and enjoy Season 2!

Or something equally smothered in sharp cheddar.

 

[Brian_Rice]

No creative bantering on web financial/marketing?

Another idea I'm throwing around is to shoot the entire first (web) season and then actually try to get the DVD into the hands of some people at a couple of cable networks (there's only two that I think it would apply to -- one of them being the Sci Fi channel). This is a little unorthodoxed (and I would worry about the statement of professionalism it might be making), but since I'm setting up an LLC specifically for the series and copyrighting where necessary, I think that would engender some notions of professionalism that might be lost in the submission process.

 

[Alex H.]

Perhaps this thread should be in the Business forum instead?

 

[Brian_Rice]

Wherever I can get some engagement!

Move-a-thread Activate?

 

[Mark Harris]

if your idea is everything you say, you should be able to get it funded. I think Web Series are a much better proposition these days than indie films, and I actually think it won't be long before they are the medium of choice for indie producers. Indie films are much more of a crap shoot IMO than a series where you have week after week to build allegiance to your story.

I have season one of a series right now, a subject that will be attractive to geeks and computer types, hackers, etc. My plan is to raise enough to shoot the first season from a private investor, build the audience and prove the series, then go for a corporate sponsor. I've started gathering some of this info, and I think that's a fair model for this kind of series. Esp a sponsor like some large software company. These companies are a) getting into content. and b) have s**tloads of money, and c) might want to support something that reaches their users/customers.

Been researching all of this for a while, and lucky enough to get some input from people smarter and more experienced than I. And I have some connections to such tech companies that I'm exploring and advocates in them that are helping navigate. If we get ours off the ground, I will start a thread detailing the process.

But as with most things, it's going to be a tough road to just try it yourself. Take a look at Project RANT, by Luis and Cliff. They are doing pretty well with that series as far as gaining ground, building audience, etc., but they are at it constantly, promoting, creating, etc, I think for a couple of years now. But that's what it might take, of course.

 

[Kholi]

You could then actually say in your web show titles "FREE: Episode One: The Gnarly Horse Rod", "FREE: Episode Two: The Dancing Ninny" and so on, thus inferring that eventually things will not be "Free". (E.g. in this case, for something to be free something associated with it must cost something).

Do you know why YouTube's pay-per-view service won't ground? Because, YouTube was always free. Trying to charge for something that was once free won't take well with an audience. That's why NetFlix and Hulu will probably continue to reign supreme.

Start out by charging, or just make it free for the lifetime and offer the option to buy a DVD compilation. The model isn't new at all, it's several years old.

See: Crackle (Sony owned).

Mortal Kombat's probably the most instantaneous example of Web Series success. Even though it sucks, for the most part (at least to me), people should be looking at that and guys like Freddie Wong to see what to do and how to make money.

Hulu pays pretty nice Per Million, but, you need to have a pretty excellent product to get to Hulu.

 

[Brian_Rice]

if your idea is everything you say, you should be able to get it funded. I think Web Series are a much better proposition these days than indie films, and I actually think it won't be long before they are the medium of choice for indie producers. Indie films are much more of a crap shoot IMO than a series where you have week after week to build allegiance to your story.

I have season one of a series right now, a subject that will be attractive to geeks and computer types, hackers, etc. My plan is to raise enough to shoot the first season from a private investor, build the audience and prove the series, then go for a corporate sponsor. I've started gathering some of this info, and I think that's a fair model for this kind of series. Esp a sponsor like some large software company. These companies are a) getting into content. and b) have s**tloads of money, and c) might want to support something that reaches their users/customers.

Been researching all of this for a while, and lucky enough to get some input from people smarter and more experienced than I. And I have some connections to such tech companies that I'm exploring and advocates in them that are helping navigate. If we get ours off the ground, I will start a thread detailing the process.

But as with most things, it's going to be a tough road to just try it yourself. Take a look at Project RANT, by Luis and Cliff. They are doing pretty well with that series as far as gaining ground, building audience, etc., but they are at it constantly, promoting, creating, etc, I think for a couple of years now. But that's what it might take, of course.

The series is primarily animation-based and so is being (and pretty much has to be) self-funded.

I agree with your ideas about going outside the traditional entertainment-based companies and trying for companies who are interested in getting into more content-based material. I think if you can find a logical fit it's just about figuring out how to pitch content-based material to a non-entertainment based company.

A question I've always had (and research has always been muddy in this even from the best How-To books) is how to actually submit new ideas for programming to network personell. Script submissions for on-going or upcoming TV or animation series is pretty straight forward, but when you're talking about what is essentially a pilot -- IMO it's really challenging to find a straight line detailing of how to get from A to B. And even if you had that manual, I wonder if there's any chance at all of getting your premise in front of someone without sufficient representation.

 

[Kholi]

A question I've always had (and research has always been muddy in this even from the best How-To books) is how to actually submit new ideas for programming to network personell. Script submissions for on-going or upcoming TV or animation series is pretty straight forward, but when you're talking about what is essentially a pilot -- IMO it's really challenging to find a straight line detailing of how to get from A to B. And even if you had that manual, I wonder if there's any chance at all of getting your premise in front of someone without sufficient representation.

Absolutely. I can name at least one person from the prolific web community that I've sat with over dollar tacos (amongst a group of other webstars) who's had the opportunity to head right into meetings for pitching content, and has had his stuff optioned for decent amounts. Not talking hundreds of thousands, but thousands indeed.

The Web's landscape is the most ripe for pioneering, but the window of opportunity is closing as studios and those with deep pockets begin to toss dollars at it to see what works and what does not. Case: Mortal Kombat. It raised the bar to a degree that most can't get to. It's a good thing, though, that shows based on talking heads are also still viable forms of entertainment.

 

[Brian_Rice]

Do you know why YouTube's pay-per-view service won't ground? Because, YouTube was always free. Trying to charge for something that was once free won't take well with an audience. That's why NetFlix and Hulu will probably continue to reign supreme.

Start out by charging, or just make it free for the lifetime and offer the option to buy a DVD compilation. The model isn't new at all, it's several years old.

See, I don't think it's so black and white. I think the idea of charging for your first, say, online comic book issue would be a really poor decision, and most independent comic book creators would probably agree.

Because you have no real reputable branding backing your product, I think you have to give people something of *substantial* value before you can go out and ask them to spend their hard-earned coin on something that you've made.

In the gray area, I wonder if there's something to the premise of releasing a web series and then releasing a straight-to-DVD film *based on* the *award-winning*/*highly acclaimed*/fill-in-the-blank web series from XYZ studios. That way you're not asking people to pay for the *same thing*, you're asking them to pay for something that's packaged and sold decisively different

There is not one single piece of me that thinks if The Guild had decided that after Season One they were going to utilize this model that they wouldn't have been hugely successful at selling their straight-to-DVD film (or, Season Two). Now, as it turns out they're entering season 5 and are continuing their production relationships with both Microsoft and Sprint which, in the end, might mean that overall it will end up being a more lucrative venture, but *could* they have packaged and sold a ton of units using the other route? I think, yes.

In a perfect scenario my path would go something like:

A) Present a screener copy of the first season to a couple of cable networks as a kind of pilot pitch. If "no"...
B) Maybe pick up on Mark's idea and present the screener to some non-content-based companies who might jive with the series. If "no"...
C) Put the series online, maybe with message of where the show has been thus far (the screener pitches it experienced, etc)
D) Do a straight-to-DVD film "due to demand" of the "failed pilot" that was originally posted online.

This way the perception is that you never actually *planned* to do the series as anything more than a pitch screener to the larger networks and so doing something *for free* wouldn't really be the next logical step if a professional was going to continue on. The next logical step would be to self-distribute to the loyal following your "failed pilot's" continuing storyline.

I don't think it's right to set out to be disengenuous, but if the series actually took the path that I'm talking about, then the marketing would be authentic, regardless if you had this kind of back-up plan all along.

 

[Brian_Rice]

Absolutely. I can name at least one person from the prolific web community that I've sat with over dollar tacos (amongst a group of other webstars) who's had the opportunity to head right into meetings for pitching content, and has had his stuff optioned for decent amounts. Not talking hundreds of thousands, but thousands indeed.

The Web's landscape is the most ripe for pioneering, but the window of opportunity is closing as studios and those with deep pockets begin to toss dollars at it to see what works and what does not. Case: Mortal Kombat. It raised the bar to a degree that most can't get to. It's a good thing, though, that shows based on talking heads are also still viable forms of entertainment.

Right, but those people were already "web stars", right? How does blow joe off the street pitch a series without representation? Heck, I even had the idea of just heading over to the studio and handing out screener copies to everyone walking through the door. lol No shame.

The other thing that sort of cripples the potential for getting this particular project picked up by a studio, though, is that I'm not interested in option-only. Unless I can be garaunteed that it's going to be produced, there's absolutely no way I would ever give over the series for any amount of money. It took me more than 30 years, but amongst all my piles of rubble I've got 4 game-changing scripts for films and 2 for series, and amongst all of them this is the one that has the most potential of "making me", and it's also the cheapest one to produce. I'm not in need of money, I'm in pursuit of the big brand name so that I can leverage that to move my other projects forward.

So I've essentially got *two* fiery, glass-filled hoops that this project would have to leap frog through in order to be picked up by the majors.

 

[Kholi]

See, I don't think it's so black and white. I think the idea of charging for your first, say, online comic book issue would be a really poor decision, and most independent comic book creators would probably agree.

Because you have no real reputable branding backing your product, I think you have to give people something of *substantial* value before you can go out and ask them to spend their hard-earned coin on something that you've made.

It's called a trailer. Haha. People don't give books away for free to gain an audience, they get critics to talk about it, do reviews, then people buy. You still have to do marketing, one way or another, and it's unavoidable. I could see giving away a free first episode for a limited time only to get people in, but business practice is different from theory.

If you want to have value to your product, you either give it away free for life or charge for it when you drop it. Twitter is worth millions, but customers don't pay for it. If Twitter or Facebook ever began to charge the end user for anything, it'd be a ghost town.

It's honestly no different for content in practice. In theory, yeah, it can be a lot more romantic. But, it's not when you actually do it.

There is not one single piece of me that thinks if The Guild had decided that after Season One they were going to utilize this model that they wouldn't have been hugely successful at selling their straight-to-DVD film (or, Season Two).

Having dealt in actual business and sales a good portion of my life (and still connected to marketing some of the cosmetic brands in the world), I am going to outright disagree with you, although respectfully. I'd put a gross amount of money on black, which is no... they wouldn't have continued on. The content isn't strong enough to charge for, but it's plenty for free entertainment.

They're doing it the right way, as well: gettin someone else to foot the bill for production, making whatever money they can, keeping costs low, and delivering.

What you're proposing isn't new at all, it's old and people have tried it. It doesn't work for various reasons, not limited to production value in general.

I don't think it's right to set out to be disengenuous, but if the series actually took the path that I'm talking about, then the marketing would be authentic, regardless if you had this kind of back-up plan all along.

I encourage you to do, so that you actually learn how things work within the realm of said business. However, if you scour the net thoroughly you'll see that people with far more capital have already tried it. But, you should definitely see what works for you and, who knows, it might work!

 

[Kholi]

Right, but those people were already "web stars", right? How does blow joe off the street pitch a series without representation? Heck, I even had the idea of just heading over to the studio and handing out screener copies to everyone walking through the door. lol No shame.

Success doesn't happen over night, and unless you can buy your way in, you actually have to DO something first. They became web stars by being prolific, and that is the way things go in our age. You can't just expect anyone to care about what you're doing if you're not even doing anything. Haha.

If you want the opportunity, you're going to have to construct it on your own.

The other thing that sort of cripples the potential for getting this particular project picked up by a studio, though, is that I'm not interested in option-only. Unless I can be garaunteed that it's going to be produced, there's absolutely no way I would ever give over the series for any amount of money. It took me more than 30 years, but amongst all my piles of rubble I've got 4 game-changing scripts for films and 2 for series, and amongst all of them this is the one that has the most potential of "making me", and it's also the cheapest one to produce. I'm not in need of money, I'm in pursuit of the big brand name so that I can leverage that to move my other projects forward.

Reality: If you don't have a name, or any sort of industry connections or contact, and you won't give up your property without a guarantee to produce... you should probably search for another career? Haha. I don't think anyone's going to change the way that things have been done for decades. Sounds a bit dreamy, to me, but hey... crazier things have happened!

 

[Brian_Rice]

Success doesn't happen over night, and unless you can buy your way in, you actually have to DO something first. They became web stars by being prolific, and that is the way things go in our age. You can't just expect anyone to care about what you're doing if you're not even doing anything. Haha.

If you want the opportunity, you're going to have to construct it on your own.



Reality: If you don't have a name, or any sort of industry connections or contact, and you won't give up your property without a guarantee to produce... you should probably search for another career? Haha. I don't think anyone's going to change the way that things have been done for decades. Sounds a bit dreamy, to me, but hey... crazier things have happened!

That's why I own the domain www.thegreatindependent.com, right?

I think your perception is in line with reality, but coming from prose and comic books I always have a back-up plan to film. If I'm incapable of doing things my way in film, most of the scripts exist in prose format and could also be adapted to graphic novels (potentially leading to options -- the kind of options you're talking about which I *would* take if the material had already been produced in a different format. E.g. if I'd already published a novel and a company optioned the rights, that's a completely different animal. But if an option prevents me the certainty that these scripts/stories will be produced, then it's a no-brainer decline for me). The problem for me is that I like my scripts more than my books and I enjoy doing film more than I do comic books. But I'm young enough to still take my time delivering all of my projects in the best possible format I can manage.

Also, unlike most people, I'm not too concerned in making film a career in the traditional sense. I'm interested in getting larger projects funded, but beyond that I don't have a need to make any more money for my personal affairs.