Request 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 internal for the DVX200!

Jaime Valles

Jaime Valles

Veteran
Hello, all.

PLEASE NOTE: This thread is not for people that want an interchangeable lens camera.

EDIT: I received a reply from the PR people, that they were forwarding my comments to the appropriate product managers!

I just sent an email to Cohn Wolfe (panasonicb2b.pr@cohnwolfe.com) and Pat Lamb (patlambpr@gmail.com) who are the two names on the press release for the DVX200. The email is requesting the inclusion of internal 10-bit 4:2:2 recording in 4K. I urge you all to write them as well and ask for this feature to be included. They still have many months before the camera is released, and if enough of us make noise about this through the proper channels, we might make a difference.

Also, this is not an unrealistic request. We can't go asking for the moon here (S35 sensor! 16+ stops dynamic range! Constant f/1.4 20x lens!) because those things simply won't happen. But a higher bit depth and color space is not out of the question. Let's concentrate on getting internal 4K in 10-bit 4:2:2.

Below is the actual email I sent, which you can use as a template if you wish (obviously, you need to change the name and personalize it so it fits your particular situation). Let's make this happen! :smile:


To whom it may concern:


My company is very interested in your newly announced AG-DVX200 camera for our event video production company. Since the camera still has a few more months before being released, I wanted to request a feature that would be very beneficial if it were included in the final product.


If there is any way that the camera had the option to record 4K footage internally in 10-bit 4:2:2, it would be a huge leap forward in image quality over the standard 8-bit 4:2:0 currently employed in other 4K cameras on the market. The ability to capture smooth gradients (such as a clear blue sky or solid color wall) without the appearance of banding and blockiness is made possible by recording at the higher bit depth and color space that 10-bit 4:2:2 provides. This is especially true when doing heavy color-grading during post-production. I feel this camera would be a massive success in the world of event shooters, run-&-gun, wedding video, documentaries, and indie films if it could record 4K internally at 10-bit 4:2:2.


I know I speak for many, many professional shooters when I ask that this be one of the recording formats included in the AG-DVX200. I look forward to learning more about this exciting camera in the coming months.


Thank you for your time.


Sincerely,


Jaime Vallés
AJV Media
Video, Photography & Graphic Design
www.ajvmedia.com
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Great move. I am going to do the same although I was just going to ask for 10 bit 4:2:2 in HD as well as the same menu structure as the PX270 (color matrix) so they can intercut seamlessly.
 
Bassman2003 said:
Great move. I am going to do the same although I was just going to ask for 10 bit 4:2:2 in HD as well as the same menu structure as the PX270 (color matrix) so they can intercut seamlessly.
Click to expand...
Sure, 10-bit 4:2:2 in HD as well would be fantastic. I assume if they can do it in 4K, then they can do it in HD!

I've never used the PX270, but if you say it's good, I believe you! :)
 
Yes 10 bit and 4:2:2 would be nice. We're living in a new time and 8 bit should not be used in professional cameras anymore.

With the speed of some SD cards nowadays such as the Lexar 2000x series (They'll be even faster SD cards by the time the DVX200 is released), Panasonic could also give it AVC Intra based codecs and that's if the camera itself is able to handle that in the 4K modes. We've already had AVC Intra HD on the (Hacked) GH2. You'd think with today's technologies, The DVX200 wouldn't have a problem making 4K files using AVC Intra.
 
Last edited:
I don't think emailing the two names on the press release is unrealistic. If their name is on the press release, than it's because they're the go to people for all inquiries. If they get more than a couple, they'll forward them to the appropriate folks.

And 10bit 4:2:2 is not unrealistic. I get Panasonic not wanting to include it into a non-P2 camera... but if they're going to stick the GH4 codecs in it (a few of which at 100mb/s+), than AVC-LongG 50mb/s (or even just 25mb/s) isn't out of line.
 
What if this requires a more powerful processing chip?

Would you guys pay extra for it?

Personally, I don't see 10-bit 422 included until GH5 comes out with it first and that may be a while.
 
This is why I am focusing on 10bit for HD recording. We know the camera can process 1080p or 720p in 10bit. 4k60p might be too large of a task. But in the end, I do not see how this compares to the GH5 or the GH4. Either Panasonic wants to play ball with this camera or it does not. Saying a $5,000 camera needs to mirror a $1,400 DSLR's codec lineup is kind of silly imho. It has a different sensor and different everything else. I do not see it being related to the GH line outside of sensor size.
 
Bassman2003 said:
This is why I am focusing on 10bit for HD recording. We know the camera can process 1080p or 720p in 10bit. 4k60p might be too large of a task. But in the end, I do not see how this compares to the GH5 or the GH4. Either Panasonic wants to play ball with this camera or it does not. Saying a $5,000 camera needs to mirror a $1,400 DSLR's codec lineup is kind of silly imho. It has a different sensor and different everything else. I do not see it being related to the GH line outside of sensor size.
Click to expand...

I think 10bit 4:2:2 4k is a bit much to ask for at this price point. 1080p? Totally reasonable. And as far as adding to the cost... an extra $200-$300 for it to be included, or $500 for the new Blackmagic Video Assist. I get that 8bit will be adaquate for most applications, but if they really want to capture the magic of the DVX moniker, 10bit would go a long way towards making "special", and I think most people would be will to pay a little extra for it.
 
Mike Harvey said:
I think 10bit 4:2:2 4k is a bit much to ask for at this price point. 1080p? Totally reasonable.
Click to expand...

If Blackmagic can offer 4K ProRes and Raw in a $3K camera, I would hope Panasonic can offer 10bit 4:2:2 H.264 in a $5000 camera. I realize it's more compressed but come on. In fact they should be offering ProRes as an option, at least for 1080p.
 
Well, I just received a reply to my original email from the Panasonic PR person! They said they were forwarding my comments to the appropriate product managers. I call that a success! Please send them emails; they are being received, and we can plant the seed in their minds that this is something we really want!
 
Mike Harvey said:
I think 10bit 4:2:2 4k is a bit much to ask for at this price point. 1080p? Totally reasonable. And as far as adding to the cost... an extra $200-$300 for it to be included, or $500 for the new Blackmagic Video Assist. I get that 8bit will be adaquate for most applications, but if they really want to capture the magic of the DVX moniker, 10bit would go a long way towards making "special", and I think most people would be will to pay a little extra for it.
Click to expand...

I would certainly be willing to pay an extra $200-$500 to have 10-bit 4:2:2 4K in the DVX200.
 
Jaime Valles said:
Well, I just received a reply to my original email from the Panasonic PR person! They said they were forwarding my comments to the appropriate product managers. I call that a success! Please send them emails; they are being received, and we can plant the seed in their minds that this is something we really want!
Click to expand...

Nice work.
 
It's nice to see a realistic, courteous letter written to the proper channels.
Assuming that camera companies "get it" is like assuming that the government, oil companies, or any entity with boards and layers of bureaucracy, has the ability to see or know what people actually want or need.

If you work with companies, and I do all the time, you learn early on, what may seem obvious to you, isn't to them.
It's why they hire companies like mine - to show them the best way to relate to their customers and help them understand them better.

This is one realistic way to effect change and decision making.
Getting a respectful petition going with multiple signatures from professionals (focused on one or two doable improvements to a prototype) is another smart step.

And whoever made the comment about a $3k BM camera delivering 4k raw and ProRes to SD cards is exactly why this should be encouraged and seriously considered by Panasonic.
 
jimagine said:
It's nice to see a realistic, courteous letter written to the proper channels.
Assuming that camera companies "get it" is like assuming that the government, oil companies, or any entity with boards and layers of bureaucracy, has the ability to see or know what people actually want or need.

If you work with companies, and I do all the time, you learn early on, what may seem obvious to you, isn't to them.
It's why they hire companies like mine - to show them the best way to relate to their customers and help them understand them better.

This is one realistic way to effect change and decision making.
Getting a respectful petition going with multiple signatures from professionals (focused on one or two doable improvements to a prototype) is another smart step.

And whoever made the comment about a $3k BM camera delivering 4k raw and ProRes to SD cards is exactly why this should be encouraged and seriously considered by Panasonic.
Click to expand...

A formal petition is a great idea! Somebody who isn't me should start one (as I already emailed them about this) but I'd definitely sign it once it's written out!
 
roxics said:
If Blackmagic can offer 4K ProRes and Raw in a $3K camera, I would hope Panasonic can offer 10bit 4:2:2 H.264 in a $5000 camera. I realize it's more compressed but come on. In fact they should be offering ProRes as an option, at least for 1080p.
Click to expand...
Except BMD gives you an X-set of features and DVX-200 gives you a Y-set and they are different and, if you want both X and Y, you'd have to pay a lot more for it.

And some folks would while others wouldn't. DVX200 is a run&gun camera, where presumably footage isn't going to be graded heavily and, with a straight-out file, 8 bit is sufficient. Raise the price by $500 and suddenly your market niche goes that-a-way.

Besides, the today prices aren't going to be tomorrow's prices. Market is getting more competitive and the trend is down, not up.
 
jimagine said:
If you work with companies, and I do all the time, you learn early on, what may seem obvious to you, isn't to them...
Click to expand...
And the obvious reason for that is that Jaime may be speaking for 20% of possible DVX200 users and Panasonic is interested in the other 80% also. And the company's main task is to maximize its sales, not to cater to every whim. In that regard, an overlapping commonality is more important than minor deviations.

Which is why you have the aftermarket.
 
DLD said:
And the obvious reason for that is that Jaime may be speaking for 20% of possible DVX200 users and Panasonic is interested in the other 80% also. And the company's main task is to maximize its sales, not to cater to every whim. In that regard, an overlapping commonality is more important than minor deviations.

Which is why you have the aftermarket.
Click to expand...


I think 10-bit 4:2:2 is smart for ALL of their market.
We are RAPIDLY entering a time wherein certain higher specs are going to become mainstream talking points. Even the least educated buyer wants "better" and once word gets around - and it's starting to - that 8-bit 4:2:0 is "obsolete" or "not professional" then the whole market will want it. Even if they don't understand what it means. Just like "4K" has done.

This one is smart. And it's broad.
For them not to do it would be an error.
 
Great to hear about the response. In my view, this should not be a cost issue. Adding a 10bit 4:2:2 HD recording option is not anything new. 10bit 4k is probably too much as it is not standard at all yet. Run and gun or not, hampering a camera at the recording stage is not cool these days. It is about sales from my point of view.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top