FS7: RED Scarlet-W

Ben Scott said:
But entry level pros (as you call them) repeatedly telling experienced shooters that their camera is almost Alexa quality or Red quality is like a newbie guitarist trying to tell Jimmy Page their Epiphone Les Paul is 98% as good as his original '59 Burst Gibson.
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I don't hate BM nearly as much as Ben (I like the image but everything else about the cameras are terrible), but this assessment is pretty accurate. Read any NoFilmSchool article and the readers (many of whom just started shooting) are like a cult, defending BM till the death and dissing any other camera. Red users have that reputation, but you go on Reduser.net now, and people are pretty chill (I know it used to be different); all except Ben ;D.

Just giving you a hard time Ben as I like your posts.
 
starcentral said:
I think the best camera to hate is the one you own :happy: :( :shocked:
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So are you getting a Scarlet-W, Dennis? You seem to hate Sony more than most, yet, you know way more about the cameras than most. Personally, I'm very happy with the image from the FS7. I find it quite cinematic but still getting the Scarlet-W.
 
Ben Scott said:
... But entry level pros (as you call them) repeatedly telling experienced shooters that their camera is almost Alexa quality or Red quality is like a newbie guitarist trying to tell Jimmy Page their Epiphone Les Paul is 98% as good as his original '59 Burst Gibson...
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Once you introduce the various effects pedals, it's more about them, less about the guitar innate acoustic sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6ZcLpCU6po
 
As a Scarlet Dragon owner I'm constantly bewildered by Sony users talking about the intricacies of the Sony menu tree and what format to shoot in and should I shoot in a particular format for particular lighting conditions on a particular day.

These problems don't exist in the Red system it's pretty much set and forget , outside of normal camera operations. The only variable OLPF choices but that's simple as well. Having said that IMO the menu system could be improved . Black shading is extremely fast on Dragon & non existent on Weapon. There are no gotchas in shooting and no surprises in post as long as you are between the "goalposts".

IMO The simplest camera is Alexa and then Red. In addition to the Sony look the Sony menu system is another reason why I would not go near Sony again.....apart from a F65.
 
I agree, and trust me I'm a big Sony user and critic but the fundamental difference is that RED really only shoots RAW and if you were to only shoot RAW on a Sony F5/F55 then operation of the camera and the post workflow becomes almost the same. Very easy and simple. It really does.

Two main issues as I see it is Sony maintaining backwards compatibility of their color science to all previous generation cameras, and that Sony eventually enabled the CineEI mode (the 'RAW' shooting mode if you will) for internal recording to compressed codecs like XAVC, SR, and MPEG. In my opinion this was opening Pandora's box. Sure doing this might enable for more functionality and capability but also becomes limiting depending on how you see it.

Fundamental issues with Sony cameras in my books:

- never should have had two modes with specific color sciences locked to each one. honestly makes no sense at all and causes lots of confusion
- should have had a way to "paint" the image in addition to the LUT for previewing purposes such as color, tint, temperature, etc.. ie. monitoring on set to make clients happy
- same "paint" to be applied on playback no matter what speed the clip was recorded at
- should have rated the ISO on their camera's properly not resorted to marketing ISO's
- is not really a 14 stop camera
 
Surf it Mike said:
As a Scarlet Dragon owner I'm constantly bewildered by Sony users talking about the intricacies of the Sony menu tree and what format to shoot in and should I shoot in a particular format for particular lighting conditions on a particular day.

These problems don't exist in the Red system it's pretty much set and forget , outside of normal camera operations. The only variable OLPF choices but that's simple as well. Having said that IMO the menu system could be improved . Black shading is extremely fast on Dragon & non existent on Weapon. There are no gotchas in shooting and no surprises in post as long as you are between the "goalposts".

IMO The simplest camera is Alexa and then Red. In addition to the Sony look the Sony menu system is another reason why I would not go near Sony again.....apart from a F65.
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While I agree with you mostly about the importance of simplicity, which Sony needs to learn about, I do not really think there is a Sony look today. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of grading can get a wide variety of looks out of the material coming from the vast majority of cameras today. I say this as someone who works often in a grading suite for myself and others. However, I think my services aren't as necessary as they once were as people's skill sets have gone way up. While I think there was still a Sony look 6-7 years ago, today I feel that is mostly mythology.

You have to remember that we on these forums are like wine connoisseurs. Most people wouldn't be able to spot the difference between outputs from various cameras if you rubbed their nose in it. However, while I think we all appreciate the best, in some ways that's easy. A true test of a wine expert is distinguishing the differences between the low and middle of the road cru's. And still being able to chose what is the best and most appropriate for the meal (or the job if you will) based on the economy of what is put before us. Further no single bottle (or camera) is appropriate for all circumstances.

That said, I always have a soft spot for the F65 (though I have not shot with it - only graded). It is a full bodied beast, but a rare lovely one at that. I have seen colors from that camera I have never seen anywhere else. As I remain a bottom feeder, it is on my list. (I never buy a camera less than 2 years on the market. I want the price to go down and the bugs to be known and ironed out before I buy one). One of these days there will be one in my studio. By that time it will probably be vintage. Along with me.
 
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I'm not so sure about " Sony look" being relegated to history as I'm still seeing it in F5/55 shots . Could be the operators..... sure . But some of the stuff I've sighted is from highly experienced crews. So maybe something is going on somewhere inside those bloated menu trees.

Its difficult to tell if "raw" acquisition is exempt from the above as I've only ever seen end product .....maybe others can comment.

PS Dennis interesting about the simplicity of Sony raw workflow. I guess this highlights Sony trying to make the cameras suitable for both broadcast and fictional narrative production & the user ability cost of catering for both.
 
Surf it Mike said:
I'm not so sure about " Sony look" being relegated to history as I'm still seeing it in F5/55 shots . Could be the operators..... sure . But some of the stuff I've sighted is from highly experienced crews. So maybe something is going on somewhere inside those bloated menu trees.

Its difficult to tell if "raw" acquisition is exempt from the above as I've only ever seen end product .....maybe others can comment.

PS Dennis interesting about the simplicity of Sony raw workflow. I guess this highlights Sony trying to make the cameras suitable for both broadcast and fictional narrative production & the user ability cost of catering for both.
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Part of what many people refer to as a Sony Look has to do with edge sharpening or crispening. This is connected to the detail circuit. This is what you would be referring to in the menus. Most people are afraid to use it. Basically as you turn it up, it softens the image. A little bit goes a long way, however nowadays as everyone wants a super crisp high resolution image, this would seem counter intuitive. Actually as the core internal setting is partially sharpened for the cinegammas, it would be good to use a little of it to bring that down. You can also take that edge off fairly easily in post without destroying the image, though that is not ideal. SLOG also seems fairly free of this artificial edge, though it probably is still there to a lesser degree. To my knowledge this is not available and not necessary for RAW. Someone else can answer better than I about this, but RAW output from the Sony F5/55 does not appear to have artificial edge sharpening, so it is not necessary.
 
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Detail/sharpening/crispening; those are only applicable in Custom Mode. For CineIE mode they are disabled. Information is for F55.
 
yoclay said:
You have to remember that we on these forums are like wine connoisseurs.
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However there's a lot of wine connoisseurs on here who have never tasted the wines they talk about so conversation can get muddied.

And there's also a lot of people new to drinking who have only tried Mad Dog 20/20 and their mum's bottle of sweet sherry, but who regurgitate some other wine drinker's opinion as though it was gospel.
 
Ben Scott said:
However there's a lot of wine connoisseurs on here who have never tasted the wines they talk about so conversation can get muddied.

And there's also a lot of people new to drinking who have only tried Mad Dog 20/20 and their mum's bottle of sweet sherry, but who regurgitate some other wine drinker's opinion as though it was gospel.
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+1 :)
 
Surf it Mike said:
As a Scarlet Dragon owner I'm constantly bewildered by Sony users talking about the intricacies of the Sony menu tree and what format to shoot in and should I shoot in a particular format for particular lighting conditions on a particular day.

These problems don't exist in the Red system it's pretty much set and forget , outside of normal camera operations...
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You say that as though RED isn't the camera with the most menu and image format options. The camera has dozens of different resolutions and aspect ratios that all lock you into different frame sizes and image performance and different framerate capabilities not to mention bitrates and post processing requirements...

I agree about being bewildered about such users though, since most of Sony's format/gamma options are just legacy and fairly useless if you are looking for the best image quality, unfortunately that isn't clear unless you've used them a fair amount and people easily get confused by too many options. At least RED is linear: more resolution means less noise and more FOV but fewer framerates and greater storage/processing requirements.

Frankly most of the "tricks" to picking a format on each of these cameras is pretty overblown since for 99% of content, viewing is done at 8bit 420 HD or lower in distant and suboptimal viewing conditions, which is the only reason I can imagine Canon DSLRs are still surprisingly popular.
 
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