Red Scarlet vs F3

Well the F3 has many faults.

Build quality being the main one. My camera is going n for maintenece already to repair various things broken. I screamed at the sony engineers this past week, in a meeting I had with them about the next F3. (Its gonna be a beast)
 
Duke M. said:
You lost me on this one Kholi. Have you looked at much F3 footage? There is a small amount of moire at the very highest repetitive frequencies, so high up that it almost never shows up in real life shooting. But aliasing? Its easy to see in the DSLRs, but in the F3 I just haven't seen it.
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A lot of F3 footage, and I still say that it has too much aliasing and moire for a camera that costs 16K, or 25K in Optimus Prime mode.

Also, don't think I'm batting for Scarlet over the F3, either. Neither are what I would consider tool of choice, especially not Scarlet (unless I had a sweet set of S16 Superspeeds, then we can talk).
 
What's wrong with the S35 4K of the scarlet? Why would you need S16 lenses?

And you hardly need superspeeds. I don't why people make a big deal about the RED and light sensitivty.... its a frigging 800 iso... that's. Way too much even. Ambient light contamination is a big problem on the crop of nightvision cameras.
 
TimurCivan said:
What's wrong with the S35 4K of the scarlet? Why would you need S16 lenses?
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I would use the cam with S16's for a different look, but even then I'd probably go and get an Epic for that and just have better IQ to begin with.
Me, personally (that means this is how I see it) if I want to shoot 4K I'm gonna shoot Epic and shoot 5K, then actually get 4K. I'll also have the option to ramp without being forced down to 4/3" or worse, 2/3" size. I don't think Scarlet's worth its price, you gain the ability to say "I shoot 4K RAW!".


Cool. Who won't be shooting 4K in the next two years thanks to how fast tech moves?

When it was first announced, I thought that whoever did not own a Scarlet was going to get left behind. Then I realized that it really is JUST a B-Cam for Epic (although plenty of people do disagree, and I don't think everyone should agree, either!). If the C300 is stacking up how it looks... well...
 
Well actually.... the F5 should be viewable at NAB....

Kholi said:
I would use the cam with S16's for a different look, but even then I'd probably go and get an Epic for that and just have better IQ to begin with.
Me, personally (that means this is how I see it) if I want to shoot 4K I'm gonna shoot Epic and shoot 5K, then actually get 4K. I'll also have the option to ramp without being forced down to 4/3" or worse, 2/3" size. I don't think Scarlet's worth its price, you gain the ability to say "I shoot 4K RAW!".


Cool. Who won't be shooting 4K in the next two years thanks to how fast tech moves?

When it was first announced, I thought that whoever did not own a Scarlet was going to get left behind. Then I realized that it really is JUST a B-Cam for Epic (although plenty of people do disagree, and I don't think everyone should agree, either!). If the C300 is stacking up how it looks... well...
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So, its a REDone at half the size/weight and cost, with the Newest MX sensor(better than the R1 MX), upgradeable to Dragon, and thats bad?

I dont follow dude. Suddenly 4k isnt good enough? especially at 20k all in? The MX R1 is 25k body only. And a shootable epic is almost 60k. Am i missing something?

Of course it has less features... its 1/3rd the price! Pay three times and much and yes you get 3x the camera. Pay 6x as much and you'll get 6x the camera (F65)...
 
TimurCivan said:
Well actually.... the F5 should be viewable at NAB....



So, its a REDone at half the size/weight and cost, with the Newest MX sensor(better than the R1 MX), upgradeable to Dragon, and thats bad?

I dont follow dude. Suddenly 4k isnt good enough? especially at 20k all in? The MX R1 is 25k body only. And a shootable epic is almost 60k. Am i missing something?

Of course it has less features... its 1/3rd the price! Pay three times and much and yes you get 3x the camera. Pay 6x as much and you'll get 6x the camera (F65)...
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4K is great. MX is still great. I don't think Scarlet is worth the price of a FULL PACKAGE (20K). Not for 2012. They're handing out outdated material the same as Canon, same as Sony. The only thing people see are K counts... cool, in that case then let me whip out the Epic and let me know which one you want to shoot on.

I'm not saying that you should believe that, and I pretty much prefaced my post with such. Invest in whatever you feel will work for you. I'm just saying it's 2009 material.
 
Barry_Green said:
That's coming... the F65...
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For those who had an EX1 or EX3 with a 35mm adapter (ie had batteries, media, charger, etc.) the F3 cost the price of a sub-compact car.

The Scarlet is the cost of a loaded full size car. The Epic and the F65 are the cost of a Corvette. Not exactly micro budget indie producer friendly.
 
Duke M. said:
Not exactly micro budget indie producer friendly.
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Why is a micro-budget indie producer looking at any of these things? They're all exorbitantly expensive for someone at that price range.

Seriously, an AF100 at ~$4,000 provides a hell of a lot to the micro-budget indie producer. And if they can't afford that, a hacked GH2 at under $1,000 is an incredible steal.

I don't think any of these products (F3, C300, Scarlet) are aimed at micro-budget producers. They all cost more than what most micro-budgeteers can even raise as a budget for their entire film!
 
Barry_Green said:
Why is a micro-budget indie producer looking at any of these things? They're all exorbitantly expensive for someone at that price range.

Seriously, an AF100 at ~$4,000 provides a hell of a lot to the micro-budget indie producer. And if they can't afford that, a hacked GH2 at under $1,000 is an incredible steal.

I don't think any of these products (F3, C300, Scarlet) are aimed at micro-budget producers. They all cost more than what most micro-budgeteers can even raise as a budget for their entire film!
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Need a like button. The thing I love about the Red (any of them) is grading that Raw. Wow playing with some grabs from around the web is mind blowing. Would love to get my hands on some Canon clips as well. I actually have the scratch for the C300 or the Scarlet but for once i'm gonna wait. I don't see where the Scarlet is so much better than the R1 MX spec wise, and if thats the case people are blowing used MX's out at Scarlet kit prices with the accessories you need. Where can I get my hands on some F3 4:4:4 goodness?
 
Barry_Green said:
Why is a micro-budget indie producer looking at any of these things? They're all exorbitantly expensive for someone at that price range.

Seriously, an AF100 at ~$4,000 provides a hell of a lot to the micro-budget indie producer. And if they can't afford that, a hacked GH2 at under $1,000 is an incredible steal.

I don't think any of these products (F3, C300, Scarlet) are aimed at micro-budget producers. They all cost more than what most micro-budgeteers can even raise as a budget for their entire film!
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I think that depends on your definition of micro budget. Mine is a feature budget less than $50k. In that, those three fit right in. Especially if you're hired to other peoples projects or to rent out and times you're not booked. It works as a business model.
 
Duke M. said:
I think that depends on your definition of micro budget. Mine is a feature budget less than $50k. In that, those three fit right in. Especially if you're hired to other peoples projects or to rent out and times you're not booked. It works as a business model.
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Whoever's paying more than 200/day for full packages on any of those cameras with a 50K budget (15 day shoot) should not be producing.

Not to mention the post workflow on a 50K budget...
 
Wrong. You have it backwards. What I can rent a fully equipped camera for, or my services, has nothing to do with the budget in my productions.
 
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Kholi said:
Whoever's paying more than 200/day for full packages on any of those cameras with a 50K budget (15 day shoot) should not be producing.

Not to mention the post workflow on a 50K budget...
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I'd have to rent a package out of town to get $200 a day.

Sony FS-100 $300 a day no lenses base plates etc
http://www.ohiohdvideo.com/product_new.php?productid=457

Panasonic AF-100 $295 a day body only (seriously???!!!) Which I have no desire to shoot on.
http://www.backyardhd.com/camera.htm

F3 Body $700 a day.

I think that's why I always look to own first :( I need to find a better rental option.
 
Here's a link to a standard Epic Rental in France:

http://www.rvz.fr/en/red-epic-m-camera
Kit including : 1 Epic M brain with PL or Canon mount, 1 Bomb EVF, 1 LCD 5" touchscreen, 1 DMSC side handle, 1 DSCM side SSD module, 2 x 128Gb SSD cards, 4 Batteries and charger, 1 Redmote

1030 Euros per day. This would be without VAT (20%)
So this would be about 60 days of rental for payback. A week's rental can be had for 4.5 days fee.
I would assume that they would have to do at least 10 weeks rental in the first year, because the drop off in rental value can be considerable after that.
But that really only represents 2-3 major productions in a year.

I don't see the Scarlet getting anywhere close to that, and to be honest I think the market will be flooded soon enough. However, for anyone looking to augment their Scarlet with an Epic for a day or two here or there, this means the rental houses will do a brisk business, especially in glass rental.

Interesting to note, this company is still renting the older RedOne for 600 Euros per day for the moment, but around town (Paris) I know it can be had for MUCH less because of all the private owners and this will be even more true with the Scarlet, because I know of a lot of folks who have signed on for that camera.

One other thing worth noting as well is that on this company's site (which is one of the major rental companies for film production) they are showing a link to a shoot with a photographer:
http://www.rvz.fr/en/first-shoots-paris-our-red-epic-cameras

So it is very, very clear that they know they will be benefiting from the convergence of these two industries for rental.
That is not something we can expect from the C300 or the F3 unfortunately.
 
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cinebuddy said:
Need a like button. The thing I love about the Red (any of them) is grading that Raw. Wow playing with some grabs from around the web is mind blowing. Would love to get my hands on some Canon clips as well. I actually have the scratch for the C300 or the Scarlet but for once i'm gonna wait. I don't see where the Scarlet is so much better than the R1 MX spec wise, and if thats the case people are blowing used MX's out at Scarlet kit prices with the accessories you need. Where can I get my hands on some F3 4:4:4 goodness?
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The scarlet is better in a number of ways. Smaller, lighter, and has the new sensor. The epic/scarlet mx chip is more advanced than the r1mx chip. Better color, less noise, more d/r, and can record with less compression. It will do 4k 24p @ 6:1 compression wich is rather light. Not lossless... But better than the R1's redcode 42, wich something on the order of 8:1. Thats very significant. Considering redcode 36, for years was the standard, and was equivalent to about 10:1 compression. Also you get 5k in apsH sized sensor @ 12fps. Its like having 1Ds mk4 thrown in for free.... But this camera has far more dr than a 1dsmk4.

you are getting a R1, plus many,benefits for half the price. Fully kitted, scarlet, ti pl, sidehandle, bombevf, 5" lcd, bottomplate, xlr adapter, red batteries, and 4x 64gig ssd's is about 26k. About the same price red was charging for a r1mx, body alone. Then u needed 15k$ in accesories.

plus this is a new camera, not a used one.

I feel its a great deal and takes beautiful pictures.
 
cinebuddy said:
I'd have to rent a package out of town to get $200 a day.

Sony FS-100 $300 a day no lenses base plates etc
http://www.ohiohdvideo.com/product_new.php?productid=457

Panasonic AF-100 $295 a day body only (seriously???!!!) Which I have no desire to shoot on.
http://www.backyardhd.com/camera.htm

F3 Body $700 a day.

I think that's why I always look to own first :( I need to find a better rental option.
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Agreed. The F3 rents for around $600 in the LA area with an MTF adapter. Ownership also gives the opportunities to get to know the settings more intimately than a rental.

Kholi I'm surprised you're even making those sorts of comments since you always discuss using a Red and I don't think that this is the niche market you operate in.
 
Duke M. said:
Agreed. The F3 rents for around $600 in the LA area with an MTF adapter. Ownership also gives the opportunities to get to know the settings more intimately than a rental.

Kholi I'm surprised you're even making those sorts of comments since you always discuss using a Red and I don't think that this is the niche market you operate in.
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I still shoot RED 90 percent of the time. Now shooting Epic.

What you are talking about is amortizing the cost of a camera over the span of many productions. You are not outlining a situation where a micro indie has 50K to spend on an entire production from pre to post and delivery.

If someone came to me with 50K for a 15 day shoot I would not spend more than 5-7 percent of the budget on camera.

My comments shouldn't be surprising to any producer.
 
Kholi said:
If someone came to me with 50K for a 15 day shoot I would not spend more than 5-7 percent of the budget on camera.
My comments shouldn't be surprising to any producer.
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And you said that with a straight face while using a Red in a micro budget production. LOL

Someone would have to be naive to buy a camera for one production (yes those people are out there.) Your budget would pay for an EX1 rental, not even an AF100 rental, which would be a disservice to your clients if they want the S35 look.

However, offsetting the cost of an F3 rental for one 15 day production, plus renting out to someone for their production and the cost of an F3 body is paid for. After that its making money. It makes economic sense if you're keeping busy.
 
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