RED Roadmap

eddavid said:
There is a lot of misinformation going around about resolution and imager quality. You can in theory shoot 4k with the dvx100 in the same way you shoot 4k with the red one. In post , with your dvx100 footage - you can enlarge it and output at 4k.
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Er...woah, what? You start by saying there are misconceptions about resolution and imager quality. Sure, that's true. But then you go on to say that you can get 4K from a DVX100 in "the same way " one can get 4K from a RED ONE. I'm afraid that I really dont understand you. DVX100 shoots a 3CCD system with about 500 lines of horizontal resolution (or counting total RGB, 1500 lines). RED ONE shoots a 4.5K crop of a 5K sensor with 4500 lines of horizontal resolution. I'm already seeing massive differences here - 3CCD versus single CMOS, 1500 lines of horizontal resolution versus 4500 lines of horizontal resolution.

Then you suggest that you can just upscale the output of the DVX100 and end up with 4K. Sure you can. You can upscale whatever you want to whatever size you want. But RED doesn't upscale - ever. If anything, it downscales in the Bayer conversion from 4.5K to 4K (or 3K or 2K or 1080p...). So again, there are massive differences here. You are talking about scaling DVX footage up more than twice, but RED footage is being downscaled during the debayering process to its desired resolution - where it resolves a very pristine 4K image.

eddavid said:
Will it look good? Probably not.
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You bet it wouldn't. It would look awful. Which is why you can't shoot 4K "the same way " using a DVX100 as you do on a RED ONE - or an EPIC or an F65, for that matter.

eddavid said:
I don't want 8K size if there are compromises and tricks like the Red One does to get there.
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Erm...what "compromises and tricks" are you seeing on the RED ONE?

The use of a bayer pattern CMOS sensor? Because that is what extremely high-end image conscious still photographers have been using for some time now. In fact, if you didn't know, the Mysterium-X sensor in RED ONE has been used for a number of professional fashion spreads in magazines like Vogue, Esquire, W, and Esquire - numerous times - as well as large print ads and branding for fashion companies. It's not a one-trick pony or a gimmick. And additionally, it's the same technology being used in just about every large sensor camera now - including the Alexa and (when turned 45-degrees) the F65. The RED ONE has an excellent imager, unless you can point out some major flaws that a massive amount of people seem to be missing.

The use of a visually lossless RAW Codec?

The use of oversampling to produce a rich, detailed image without artificial sharpening or aliasing?

eddavid said:
Now with the F65, we finally have a mechanical shutter, which addresses the biggest concern I have with the red one - that the motion doesn't quite feel like film to me. This is where the F65 will prove more interesting, possibly moreso than even the Arri Alexa if the workflow is fairly simple, the files sizes are managable, and it has the colorspace of the Alexa.
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I agree, I think the mechanical shutter is a great idea for the F65, and I'd like to see it in every digital cinema camera if it works well. Unfortunately, the F65s workflow is still very nebulous. People aren't sure how exactly support for RAW will be handled by Sony - whether it will be all in house, 3rd party, or a mixture of the two. And the filesizes will be absolutely nuts. 60minutes for 1TB of footage, or 17GB per minute. Not what most would call "manageable". Still, I'm excited to see what it's bringing to the game. Oh, and speaking of problems with imagers - it is expected that the F65 may very well have some pretty obvious chroma aliasing.
 
http://rcjohnso.com/REDFACTS.html

explains the red one tricks.

also the esquire images looked pretty bad. have you seen the Megan Fox issue? pixelated to all get up - lots of resolution issues. the cover looked truly "digitized". sure this is before the Red Epic but I believe that stuff was shot with the M-X sensor. I don't think Red is ready to shoot stills. Unless now it looks better but I haven't seen any of the other covers.
 
Ah, yes. Problematically, that (old and mostly "RED-hate" based) article is more or less taking issue with three things.

1) RED names their sensors differently than others in the industry.
2) Bayer CMOS v. CCD regarding resolution and color gathering.
3) A very simplified understanding of compression.

And, some of it's true. It's just way overblown.

1) So RED calls their sensors 4K (or 5K) because they have approximately 4000 or 5000 lines of resolution on the sensor and put out that much in the .r3d. People shooting on 1080p cameras apparently got their feelings hurt because they were shooting on 6K cameras that were only being called 1080p cameras because they only resolved 1080p. This entire argument is something of a non-issue and, to someone who just cares about the quality of the sensor, doesn't matter. You want me to call an F35 a 6K camera instead of a 1080p camera? Fine. It's a 6K camera. Want me to call a DVX100 a 1.5K camera instead of a .5K camera? Fine, it's a 1.5K camera. Want me to call an Alexa a 2.8K camera instead of a 1080p camera? Fine, it's a 2.8K camera. The fact that some numbers are bigger than others or that a company has chosen a different metric because their system is, inherently, unconventional, doesn't bother me, but it bothered some people a whole lot. It's all just semantics here. And the end of the day, shoot a zone chart. What does it resolve for luma and chroma? Problem solved.

2) Does 3CCD capture one Red, on Green, and one Blue photosite for every pixel? Yep. Does Bayer CMOS? Nope. Does the Bayer CMOS image still have fantastic color fidelity and latitude. Yep. Good enough for the best photographers and cinematographers in the world? Yep. With a finished image that has been compared as equalling or surpassing the capabilities of film by the same group of people, independent of camera? Yep. Easy as that, in my opinion. No wonder Arri and Sony are now using bayer (or rotated bayer) CMOS.

3) So one whole point in the article is - RAW is good, because its not compressed. Compression is bad because it throws away data. The more compression the worse it gets. That's true, when speaking about one form of compression. But the problem with that approach is that it leaves out the types of compression being done. REDCODE uses a customized (it is not "just" JPEG2000) wavelet compression system that differs fundamentally from traditional video codec compression. So is it more compressed than other codecs, in terms of ratio of original size to compressed size? Yes. But does it show? I have yet to find people taking exception with it in real use. But why not just offer RAW? Because RAW at 4K is massive. It's hugely huge. In fact, colorists and editors have recently spoken about how Sony should offer a similar compressed-RAW codec for the F65, because it's just so much data.

The crux of that article is this "The Sony cameras (F23/35) are just as good as the new (at the time) RED ONE. And in fact, the RED ONE - with its large CMOS sensor, silly 4K labeling, and compressed codec - is in many ways worse. Sony has the right direction here." Which is kind of ironic, because both the Alexa and the new F65 bear far more in common with RED in terms of imager design (large, high pixel-count bayer [or rotated bayer] CMOS sensors). And now Sony is playing the same numbers game as RED with their 8K sensor. And Sony has gone RAW, instead of using a video codec. And are apparently contemplating a compressed RAW codec to get under the 17GB/minute recording window they currently have because people are taking issue with that much data.

So if RED is pulling any "tricks" - so are Canon, Nikon, Sony, Arri, and many others. Let the images speak for themselves - we are at a time where digital cinema is beginning to flourish, and we are getting all kinds of cameras from many different companies, RED included, that can produce great images.
 
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The Bayer pattern sensor was a brilliant development in digital photography. It is the closest mechanical mimic to the way the human eye samples resolution and color, including luminance vs color resolution. This makes it a very effective and efficient device for capturing visually meaningful data and why it is so universally used in single chip cameras from virtually every manufacturer.
Most of the criticisms leveled toward Red's choice of Bayer pattern sensors applies to all Bayer pattern sensors. Fact is a 4k Red 1 frame matches or exceeds the optical resolution of a 4k scanned S35mm film frame, which was the original design goal.
 
What exactly are you referring to when you say that the Red One uses "tricks" to shoot in 4K? It's not sub-sampling and interpolating, if that's what you're getting at with the DVX100 comparison.

Edit: Sorry, I thought the end of last page was the end of the thread - this has already been discussed!
 
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Has the original topic ran its course? Isn't there already a forum for RED discussions?
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...consider the fact I have about 4,500 posts at DVXuser and about 80 posts at RedUser... and I have a redone camera. I think opposing viewpoints are more welcome here and that is one of the many reasons I really like DVXuser and choose to make it my filmmaking forum home.

So despite this becoming a little off topic, it is a good discussion and I don't think we ought to send all Red conversations to another forum.
 
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I would also like to add that I'm not going into this with blind RED zealotry. I'm not trying to say that the RED ONE or the EPIC-X/M is just the best cinema camera ever, that's it, period. I believe that digital cinema is really still only in its infancy, and it is growing rapidly in ability and options. I do believe that RED made a lot of smart choices with the RED ONE that have ended up panning out for them and are seeing either re-envisioning or full implementation in EPIC.

There are advantages to the 3CCD approach, but disadvantages at the S35 size are heavy indeed...especially when you talk about 4K and 60+ frames per second. And I believe that there are reasons to investigate and use other approaches - will Sony's rotated bayer array prove to be a brilliant and overwhelmingly superior design? I don't know - it could be. How about designs like the Foveon, which physically mimic film more closely? Very interesting...

I think this may very well turn into a sort of "digital stock" argument...comparing which is better, Kodak or Fuji? Well, they are both great. They both have been used to make great films. And it is up to the artist to decide which tool they wish to use to tell their story - be it a RED, a Panasonic, a Sony, or an Arri.

And ultimately, for me, the non-famous non-Hollywood filmmaker, it all boils down to better storytelling tools - ideally for the same or less money than I am currently paying.

Something else I find interesting (and something more related to the original topic of this thread) is that RED is very focused on upgrading and keeping up with Moore's law for cameras, in a way. They are essentially saying - despite having just released the Mysterium-X sensor in a camera truly designed for it - that they are well underway with their next sensor design, Dragon (yeah, yeah...). I'm curious to see what happens with R&D cycles - will some companies choose to release new cameras every 3-5 years, meeting or exceeding the standard at the time of release and for a while after, but then slowly becoming average or even disregarded before launching their next product? Or will companies shift to a more nimble production schedule, where numerous generations of sensors and designs are in process at once, so that sensor technology begins to follow a more yearly cycle?
 
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Michael Olsen said:
I would also like to add that I'm not going into this with blind RED zealotry. I'm not trying to say that the RED ONE or the EPIC-X/M is just the best cinema camera ever, that's it, period.
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Honestly... give it 2 months when the Sony F65 starts shipping....

That title will change hands. That camera is BONKERS.

That said, let me explain why. IMHO from first hand experience, the best Digital cinema camera available now is the ARRI Alexa. The RED and Epic out resolve the Alexa, have more frame rates, are smaller, cheaper and lighter... They have RAW, and Color science, and free firmeware upgrades. At the end of the day, when you turn on the Alexa and look at the monitor, you don't care the red exists. Its the picture. Plain and simple. But this is all preference to taste in imaging.

I saw the F65 demo footage at NAB on a 4K screen. When it ships it will take the title. Its image is absolutely insane. Completely organic, with the most lifelike color and texture ive ever seen from digital. It has the Xfactor, the mojo.... like the alexa, but at 4k. So its sharp and lifelike. just perfect. Cant wait to shoot on it.

Now, once again, that said, the merits of the Epic are as follows, its higher frame rates make for the most affordable igh speed camera available... however, My persona taste is one of natural, smooth images with lifelike color. When i shot film, i preferred Fuji Eterna. Which is Alexa like. Soft contrast, subtle color, and a "smoky" look. The Epic is more like Kodak 5213, Contrasty, while maintaining the high dynamic range, saturated colors etc... But i don't want my films to look like its a moving DSLR image. Thats what Epic looks like to me. Plastic, glossy, laquered, hyper reality thats from the future.

The Alexa, F3 w/ Log, and F65 look like a dramatic film. Epic looks like a Die Antwoord Music Video.

NSFW NSFW NSFW


Which is to say, Awesome, but not all the time, and not for everything. I will most likely purchase an Epic some day, as its affordability makes it the only real option, but my heart will always belong to the Alexa..... sweet sweet alexa....
 
Tzedekh said:
Curiously, there's no distinction between the fixed and interchangeable Scarlets -- just "Scarlet." The fixed is awaiting a lens component, which could hold it up indefinitely, so I wonder it could be confidently ranked in chronological order. If all the other parts are available, the interchangeable, however, could likely be released next. But Jim didn't say anything but "Scarlet." Also, as noted, Epic-S is conspicuously absent, even though, when announced, it was billed as a sort-of stripped-down X. I would've thought that Red could have released that shortly after the X, if indeed it still exists. If the "road map" doesn't omit anything, then maybe the Epic-S and Scarlets have been merged. What form that would take is anyone's guess. But I suspect that it has at least 4K resolution.
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I wonder if we'll ever actually see the interchangeable version of the Scarlet, it's always seemed (to me at least) that Red cared a lot more about the fixed lens version - to the extent of almost considering it the "Scarlet". This makes sense if they're aiming it at the ENG market.

OldCorpse said:
I like a company/people who have ambition and are shooting for the moon, so I'm A OK with RED as far as that goes. But the reason I stand to the side in all of this, is the weird way some people around RED are behaving - it's like a personality cult or something. I guess I'm not a natural worshipper, and all the hosannahs are freaking me out. Deliver the goods, and we'll talk - I'll praise your efforts, commensurate with your results, but this worshipping on the knees at every word that falls from the lips of god, just squicks me out. Every time I visit that site, I feel nauseous. Good luck anyhow!
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Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
...consider the fact I have about 4,500 posts at DVXuser and about 80 posts at RedUser... and I have a redone camera. I think opposing viewpoints are more welcome here and that is one of the many reasons I really like DVXuser and choose to make it my filmmaking forum home.

So despite this becoming a little off topic, it is a good discussion and I don't think we ought to send all Red conversations to another forum.
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I agree. You don't get many one lined posts here saying "I love you Red" or "Awesome work from the universes best most legendary camera company". I'm not saying I don't like Red (I do like them) just that I enjoy the discussions taking place here about Red is comparison to the Red Forums because we have a wider range of in depth conversation and a lot less "shooting down" and praising. Just the other day I saw a personal discussion on Facebook about the amount of "fan boys" over there.

On the original topic now: I think one thing Red does have over Sony is the fact that they are a small personal company, and Sony is a major conglomerate. I'd rather deal with Red when it comes down to problems than with Sony and their bureaucracy.

Such exciting times these days! :cheesy:
 
"On the original topic now: I think one thing Red does have over Sony is the fact that they are a small personal company, and Sony is a major conglomerate. I'd rather deal with Red when it comes down to problems than with Sony and their bureaucracy."

I disagree. I love small companies. Convergent Designs is one of my favorite. They couldn't be nicer and more responsive to problems. Same with Marshall Electronics and Kessler and Indie Systems that makes the Indie Dolly.

Red has a certain arrogance and swagger and machismso, chest-pumping attitude. Granted I don't own a piece of Red gear but just hearing their attitude towards their users on their forum is enough to be disheartening.
 
eddavid said:
Red has a certain arrogance and swagger and machismso, chest-pumping attitude. Granted I don't own a piece of Red gear but just hearing their attitude towards their users on their forum is enough to be disheartening.
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Agreed.... I really do like RED technology and will likely buy a Scarlet, when it arrives (unless something better arrives from other companies)....

but the company, on a whole, leave a bitter taste in my mind.... arrogant, quick to point out flaws in the competition... using buzz words like war and battle... and naming (and designing) products with military sounding names..... Maybe that works well in the high octance landscape of LA.... but in Europe, it is laughable at best and downright off putting at worst.

They are big players now... they don't need this macho, over the top hyping. Hopefully they can now mature and become a respectable company that understands there is life outside of LA.
 
@eddavid: It's too male for me. I feel like I'm joining a fraternity. There's so much more to a product than the product. The aura around a RED is scary for me. I've shot with it here about 4 times now, week long shoots on average, and that thing is too good, people can't stop huddling around it. Everyone thinks they're a superstar on that set. That's what I don't like about it. It is an arrogant product. 'swagger, machismo, chest-pumping' perfect words. They may be small but they don't carry themselves that way.

I don't get 'groovy' from RED. And we're artists not soldiers man. Timur argued his personal preference so groovy two posts ago, I didn't feel like he was 'defending' a camera.

I mean, (and I may get slayed for this) my dream cam has been the a-camdii (precisely coz it's 2/3'ds, lenses I can get are waaaaaay cooler) but.. really, that goran olson guy. I would totally hang out with him, and work with him. I like his approach to design. and it's charming how tired he's become interview after interview, and mixes words, but is sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over. I dig that vibe, I think ikonoskop would be a wicked place to work. I wouldn't work at RED. They'd probably make fun of you the first year to 'bust your chops' or something military like that. And I'm physically little there's no way I can trust a vibe like that to see past it. It's not my hangout.

And after every RED post I make, I have to make this disclaimer coz it's the truth: I ain't NEVER worked on ANY footage like an R3D. It is insane.

Truth be told that's all. Groovy is good. Testosterone is bad.
 
TimurCivan said:
Honestly... give it 2 months when the Sony F65 starts shipping....
That title will change hands.
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Oh, I'm not trying to give any camera the World Champion title...but I agree that the Sony has every chance of receiving great acclaim. They have quite a camera with features I can only imagine lots of DPs will like. And there are plenty of people who are huge fans of Sony.


TimurCivan said:
Its the picture. Plain and simple. But this is all preference to taste in imaging.
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I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. Alexa has a certain look to it right out of the camera that is very smooth. I do have to wonder, though...if you have a 4K image from an F65 or from the RED - how hard would it be to set up an "Alexa look" and come very close to creating almost exactly the same image? How much of it is the specific imager, and how much of it is interpretation of data? Same with F65 from ARRIRAW and REDCODE - how close could someone get to producing that image? I'm actually really curious to see that test.

RED can look many different ways, though a lot of times it does see that very "sharp, contrasted, and hard". Of course, that may just be a reflection of what people want the image to look like. It can definitely look differently:

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Regarding RED machismo...I think it is changing shape and/or style. Go look at their new website. Sure, it is still based around dark colors with high contrast. Sure it still has the heavy, sharp, militaristic "machine" font. But gone are the gas masks, the warning messages, and so on. And while they did recently "declare war" - Jim took the time to understand what kind of connotations that had for different people and started an entire thread regarding his meaning to clear it up.

But I think this is part of the culture, and I think it's part of Jim's personal style. Anyone remember the "trip to Oakley" thread that Jarred Land posted here years ago? By all appearances, their waiting room looked like it was some sort of industrial waste processing facility that had gone to rust. The chairs were ejection seats from fighter planes, and the coffee table looked to be about a 14 foot long torpedo mounted on a dais. So this is nothing new...it's just new for a major cinema camera company.

And RED is a small, personal company, despite shipping thousands of cameras now. It might not have the style you prefer, but I have actually never seen a company with closer ties to or more appreciation of its customers. And I have never seen a company with more personal feeling and emotion invested in their products. And I think that changes the way RED and some RED owners look at things - it stops being "just business" and develops a into human relationship.

EDIT: I hate the image system here...

EDIT 2: Also, ARRI have apparently launched the ALEXA STUDIO - also with a mechanical shutter.
 

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Michael Olsen said:
I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. Alexa has a certain look to it right out of the camera that is very smooth. I do have to wonder, though...if you have a 4K image from an F65 or from the RED - how hard would it be to set up an "Alexa look" and come very close to creating almost exactly the same image? How much of it is the specific imager, and how much of it is interpretation of data? Same with F65 from ARRIRAW and REDCODE - how close could someone get to producing that image? I'm actually really curious to see that test.

RED can look many different ways, though a lot of times it does see that very "sharp, contrasted, and hard". Of course, that may just be a reflection of what people want the image to look like. It can definitely look differently:
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The alexa has 14.5 stops of Dynamic Range, the F65 14 stops, the F3/log 13.5. This is the source of the look.


the Epic has 12, the MX 11.5, HDRX does not count as its a post effect with no way to monitor on set, and it introduces motion artifacts. I'm talking native dynamic range.

You cant dial in Dynamic range, just like you cant add resolution in post.



EDIT:

Also, personally, i dont prescribe to the concept of "Do it all in post". I dont agree with that. Make a decision. This is why i never was attracted to the r3D workflow. I hated the idea that the director, producer, editor could just go back to my R3D's and dial in a totally different exposure, look, and color. Its frustrating, and has happened so many times on music video, shorts, etc... Director and i make a decision on set to make it look a certain way, like B&W for example, and when we shoot for that. when i see the final, next think i know it looks like technicolor. WTF?

Its just a philosophical stance. All of these high end digital systems are capable of the same amount of alteration, but i at least can dial in a complex look in camera. The RED takes on its character in post.
 
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