Jim Jannard posted a roadmap on REDUSER.net.
RED Roadmap
- Thread starter Eike
- Start date
Joe Walker
Well-known member
Well I guess that pretty much tells us that Epic S is dead.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Not quite.
He has been rather vocal in claiming it is not dead... but has not used the name 'Epic-S' in a while. Last he was asked about it his response was "the camera you want is coming later this year.". As always, sounds like things have changed.
He has been rather vocal in claiming it is not dead... but has not used the name 'Epic-S' in a while. Last he was asked about it his response was "the camera you want is coming later this year.". As always, sounds like things have changed.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
So a list of words is a "road map"?
Really?
Really?
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Surprises?! So to clarify, a surprise = something you don't know they are doing... So I guess Sony, Arri, Panasonic, and everyone else who has a R&D department or hopes to release another camera in the future has 'surprises' down the road. 
I thought Red had a new strategy... I guess it went from announcing things in advance to announcing general ambiguous nothings in advance. It still drives me crazy how they bait their audience. Some things don't change. I like their products and I know there are some very strong ties with Red and DVXuser... but I don't care what is down the road. If I can't shoot with it now, it doesn't exist. God speed, Red... let me know when you've got new gear to use, 'cause I'll be out shooting with what is out now in the meantime. With that said, I'm excited for my first Epic-M shoot this coming week.
Always been a fan of their cameras... never so much the show.
I thought Red had a new strategy... I guess it went from announcing things in advance to announcing general ambiguous nothings in advance. It still drives me crazy how they bait their audience. Some things don't change. I like their products and I know there are some very strong ties with Red and DVXuser... but I don't care what is down the road. If I can't shoot with it now, it doesn't exist. God speed, Red... let me know when you've got new gear to use, 'cause I'll be out shooting with what is out now in the meantime. With that said, I'm excited for my first Epic-M shoot this coming week.
Always been a fan of their cameras... never so much the show.
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Well, I guess that things are in chronological order from top to bottom. You didn't expect a schedule of dates, did you? Isn't that what Red is the worst at?
Curiously, there's no distinction between the fixed and interchangeable Scarlets -- just "Scarlet." The fixed is awaiting a lens component, which could hold it up indefinitely, so I wonder it could be confidently ranked in chronological order. If all the other parts are available, the interchangeable, however, could likely be released next. But Jim didn't say anything but "Scarlet." Also, as noted, Epic-S is conspicuously absent, even though, when announced, it was billed as a sort-of stripped-down X. I would've thought that Red could have released that shortly after the X, if indeed it still exists. If the "road map" doesn't omit anything, then maybe the Epic-S and Scarlets have been merged. What form that would take is anyone's guess. But I suspect that it has at least 4K resolution.Glad to see that Scarlet is (finally
surprise #1 surprise #2? wow. i closed that tab in 5 seconds. my palms sweat when i see it now. i'm sticking to my dvxuser.com.
(also, as with rpo, i know there are strong ties between here and there) but i can't hold it in all the time. really, thank heavens the cameras are amazing. they'd have to be nothing short of amazing to justify an attitude like that.
mine's harsh i know, but rpo put it well and with more decency than i could command. 'i like the cameras, not the show'.
(also, as with rpo, i know there are strong ties between here and there) but i can't hold it in all the time. really, thank heavens the cameras are amazing. they'd have to be nothing short of amazing to justify an attitude like that.
mine's harsh i know, but rpo put it well and with more decency than i could command. 'i like the cameras, not the show'.
Michael Olsen
Veteran
People have been asking pretty hard questions, as the days roll by, about when things are going to be happening. At least we now have a directionally correct answer.
Grug
Veteran
To be honest, it seems almost daft that Red would even be bothering with a 2/3" camera in the current market, when all of the momentum seems to be behind affordable large-sensor cameras - which is why the AF100, F3 and FS100 are cleaning up at the moment.
When other companies weren't even talking about these kinds of cameras, RED had the luxury of being able to keep people waiting tentatively. But with cameras out in the world shooting already, and for extremely good prices - I suspect they're going to start struggling to hold people's interest. Epic's an amazing camera (I was involved in my first shoot with one just the other week), but it's simply beyond consideration (price wise) for the 'scarlet' crowd.
They need a pared back Epic, something that uses a S35mm sensor, shoots at a lower bitrate, and does up to 96fps or 120fps or something along those lines - they need to pare it back and price it alongside the F3 if they want any traction in that end of the market (perhaps they don't?)
When other companies weren't even talking about these kinds of cameras, RED had the luxury of being able to keep people waiting tentatively. But with cameras out in the world shooting already, and for extremely good prices - I suspect they're going to start struggling to hold people's interest. Epic's an amazing camera (I was involved in my first shoot with one just the other week), but it's simply beyond consideration (price wise) for the 'scarlet' crowd.
They need a pared back Epic, something that uses a S35mm sensor, shoots at a lower bitrate, and does up to 96fps or 120fps or something along those lines - they need to pare it back and price it alongside the F3 if they want any traction in that end of the market (perhaps they don't?)
Michael Olsen
Veteran
2/3" sensors may not be in vogue with the indie production crowd, but they are an indispensable sensor format that many prefer over 4/3" or S35.
I'm also not sure that RED does care to provide a solution for every point in the market, especially if that means lower bitrate and use of a traditional video codec. The camera you mention - S35 but less expensive than an EPIC-M or EPIC-X - is/was the EPIC-S. We have been reassured (again...) that such a camera is coming later this year...though it may not be called EPIC-S any longer. It's spec and feature set would be far above that of the F3, but it's price point would be similar.
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digital_walnut
Active member
The 2/3" sensor is aimed at the ENG market - as long as people are shooting news footage and documentaries, there will be a demand for smaller sensors. They're also cheaper, smaller, lighter and don't require the same kind of investment in lenses, which can be nice.
I like a company/people who have ambition and are shooting for the moon, so I'm A OK with RED as far as that goes. But the reason I stand to the side in all of this, is the weird way some people around RED are behaving - it's like a personality cult or something. I guess I'm not a natural worshipper, and all the hosannahs are freaking me out. Deliver the goods, and we'll talk - I'll praise your efforts, commensurate with your results, but this worshipping on the knees at every word that falls from the lips of god, just squicks me out. Every time I visit that site, I feel nauseous. Good luck anyhow!
ethan cooper
Well-known member
My thinking is this: Red has figured out their ideal market is the higher end. They love rubbing elbows with Peter Jackson & hearing people like John Schwartzman sing the praises of the Epic. I think that Scarlet & the lower end market honestly aren't as important to them, I mean if your production business was kicking butt & you had your hands full working with big budget projects would you expending much energy returning the calls of potential clients looking for a cheap :30 spot or would you just let those slip past to other companies? It's not a knock on Red, but just how things go.
I think Scarlet will make it to market, they've put too much time, effort & resources into the project to let it go at this point but I do see them in the future shying away from the under $10,000 market especially if their top end stuff keeps making strides within the industry. They've got too much pride to not keep going after the top end, they seem to like the bragging rights & sticking it to the established big boys. Red's recent flurry of cryptic announcements coming the same week as Sony unveiling the F65 isn't a fluke and I'm sure it's driving them nuts that someone else is out specing them at the moment.
3k for $3K was a fun idea three years ago & would have made an absolute killing at the time, but it took too long to develop and the market changed around them. The Red One at that time was Red's flagship camera and while revolutionary wasn't ever going to gain a solid foothold in the highest reaches of the industry due to limitations of the technology it was built around. Red could be tempted to play in the lower end of the spectrum because the perception of their company was that it was geared toward high middle to lower tier businesses. Today, three years later, Epic is winning praise from the elites in LA and is poised to take over the high end market. I honestly think that shift will filter down into their product line eventually.
My guess is that other than this first batch of Scarlet iterations, we'll see that the Red One price point of around $15K will probably become their lowest priced body. I honestly don't think they're a 'low end' company, it just doesn't seem to be in their DNA. I'd be glad to be wrong.
I think Scarlet will make it to market, they've put too much time, effort & resources into the project to let it go at this point but I do see them in the future shying away from the under $10,000 market especially if their top end stuff keeps making strides within the industry. They've got too much pride to not keep going after the top end, they seem to like the bragging rights & sticking it to the established big boys. Red's recent flurry of cryptic announcements coming the same week as Sony unveiling the F65 isn't a fluke and I'm sure it's driving them nuts that someone else is out specing them at the moment.
3k for $3K was a fun idea three years ago & would have made an absolute killing at the time, but it took too long to develop and the market changed around them. The Red One at that time was Red's flagship camera and while revolutionary wasn't ever going to gain a solid foothold in the highest reaches of the industry due to limitations of the technology it was built around. Red could be tempted to play in the lower end of the spectrum because the perception of their company was that it was geared toward high middle to lower tier businesses. Today, three years later, Epic is winning praise from the elites in LA and is poised to take over the high end market. I honestly think that shift will filter down into their product line eventually.
My guess is that other than this first batch of Scarlet iterations, we'll see that the Red One price point of around $15K will probably become their lowest priced body. I honestly don't think they're a 'low end' company, it just doesn't seem to be in their DNA. I'd be glad to be wrong.
Seems rendundant to point out that best picture and best cinematography Oscars along with many nominations have gone to films shot on 2/3"-16mm sized formats for the last couple of years. 35mm format isn't the only way to shoot a movie.
+100 2/3rds feels great. And it's way more 'blur in the background' than i need. I haven't been buying cameras, been renting, but if I ever buy one for me, it'll be a 16mm sized chip.
Danielvilliers
Veteran
I find it a bit comical the way red reacts. I remember the days when the Canon Hdslr came out and the subsequent interest it gathered in the film community. One month after that we had the complete reshuffling of the RED line etc. with big announcement for some product that are still not available now, three years later!!!! It was like today a road map and some of these announcement will never materialize like the S35 scarlet. So for a company showing a road-map and then saying that everything can change is a joke.
I think they were shocked last night when they heard about the price of the F65. I think nothing prepared them to that, they were sure contemplating at least a $ 150 000 camera. Something that would be unaffordable, more a rental camera ala... Sony Cinealta history. Now Sony is coming directly at them (and Alexa) and apart from frame rate, RED has lost all the bragging rights. Where they thought that they had the high end pro market on features even compared to the Alexa. They are now with a competitor that has everything bettering them even in their biggest claim which is resolution. When Sony goes along its marketing saying true 4k, for some it might seem something light, but it is aimed directly at RED. The rotary shutter is also a small print for some but a huge huge implication for Red. Most of the CGI heavy blockbuster will see in it a much better camera than any other CMOS rolling shutter Camera. A true 4.4.4 , 4k (After debayer), raw (not compressed), global shutter camera even at twice the price kitted out will be a big big threat to the upper end.
For me RED is its worst enemy. Technologically I am an admirer and they are the reason why the f65 is $ 65 000 and not $ 250 000. But their marketing and ego will be their lost. They went up and up the latter in a smaller and smaller niche market and thought that the big guys would stay put and watch them. If they would have kept their foot on the ground and not humiliate people (man up, etc...) they could have a much larger market that would have been much more stable for them in the long run. I always said a working 2.5 k bayer sensor S 35 camera for a $ 8000 to $ 10 000 would have been a big big hit. It would have enough differentiation because of the resolution and devised much more rapidly because it would be 1/4 the data than the Epic. It would not have any bragging of being the highest this and highest that, but it would have been.............. good enough, and for a large majority great camera. Now they are cornered by Sony, on the lower part with the F3 and the high end with the F65. Lots of Red potential money is going to go to Sony. More so that now with the F3 and the F65 nobody knows to what level Sony is prepared to go against its competitors.
I think they were shocked last night when they heard about the price of the F65. I think nothing prepared them to that, they were sure contemplating at least a $ 150 000 camera. Something that would be unaffordable, more a rental camera ala... Sony Cinealta history. Now Sony is coming directly at them (and Alexa) and apart from frame rate, RED has lost all the bragging rights. Where they thought that they had the high end pro market on features even compared to the Alexa. They are now with a competitor that has everything bettering them even in their biggest claim which is resolution. When Sony goes along its marketing saying true 4k, for some it might seem something light, but it is aimed directly at RED. The rotary shutter is also a small print for some but a huge huge implication for Red. Most of the CGI heavy blockbuster will see in it a much better camera than any other CMOS rolling shutter Camera. A true 4.4.4 , 4k (After debayer), raw (not compressed), global shutter camera even at twice the price kitted out will be a big big threat to the upper end.
For me RED is its worst enemy. Technologically I am an admirer and they are the reason why the f65 is $ 65 000 and not $ 250 000. But their marketing and ego will be their lost. They went up and up the latter in a smaller and smaller niche market and thought that the big guys would stay put and watch them. If they would have kept their foot on the ground and not humiliate people (man up, etc...) they could have a much larger market that would have been much more stable for them in the long run. I always said a working 2.5 k bayer sensor S 35 camera for a $ 8000 to $ 10 000 would have been a big big hit. It would have enough differentiation because of the resolution and devised much more rapidly because it would be 1/4 the data than the Epic. It would not have any bragging of being the highest this and highest that, but it would have been.............. good enough, and for a large majority great camera. Now they are cornered by Sony, on the lower part with the F3 and the high end with the F65. Lots of Red potential money is going to go to Sony. More so that now with the F3 and the F65 nobody knows to what level Sony is prepared to go against its competitors.