They post updates on their forum? Holy crap it's like a marketing blitz!!!
RED Renames Scarlet - Now "Epic Light"
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They post updates on their forum? Holy crap it's like a marketing blitz!!!
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
Just because the stores are on the TV and radio advertising Black Friday sales, doesn't make it ok for people to trample others when the doors open...
Everything's cool until someone gets crushed. Then we blame the store?
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree. And with where they're at now with the "Pro cameras at pro prices" philosophy, I think they would be better served if they got rid of their forums and just catered to professionals. I don't really see their forum as serving that end. I mean what's the purpose of keeping the hype machine running for a demographic that they're no longer catering too. I think that chatter just hurts them more than it helps them at this point.
I mean if your going to stand beside Arri Alexa, you need to put on your tux and tails and stop hanging around the garage, drinking beer and talking to kids that can't afford your product anyway. ....or I could be wrong.
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Exactly. Jim said just a few weeks ago that the Scarlet S35 would be shipping by April.
Now maybe he meant the EPIC-S, or whatever it ends up being called, but he knew what people thought the Scarlet S35 was... the $7,000-8000 camera body that had been listed on the Red Website for over a year.
If there really are significant changes to make the Scarlet S35 into the EPIC-S, then either the camera is nowhere close to an April release, or its much closer to the Epic than people anticipate, and it's going to cost a helluva lot more than $7-8K.
Now I don't think anybody has a problem with Red changing these cameras for the better, but the Red Team talks up these cameras as if they are almost here and keep telling their fanbase to hold on for a little longer, and then they change their strategy on a dime, with prices continuously moving upwards and release dates continuously moving backwards.
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Jim's response to a question about locking specs for production at some point. Looks like future developments won't be revealed ahead of time, just like every other company.
Jimmy Moss
Well-known member
I still think people are not looking at the big picture, RED stands out from the crowd not because of S35, but because of HDRx, REDCODE RAW, and the modular system. Those are things none of the other companies have yet, which is probably why they are adding HDRx to all the cameras.
I'd buy the 2/3 inch version with those features over a S35 without.
I'd buy the 2/3 inch version with those features over a S35 without.
HKO
Well-known member
To kit out the old RED S35 was never going to be below 10K anyway IMHO. That's where the extraordinary modularity becomes a real pain in the behind if you are on a budget - nice for big budget pros who wish to quickly switch mid-shoot between configurations but boy does it up the price for every little additional piece you want after the fact. It's a great way to make money as a business no doubt - why sell one piece when we can break the pieces up into accessories that cost more per unit that if they were all in one. At least with the F3 you have just have to get lenses once you have the body. Having to buy an LCD, Remote control, Media cartridge, Audio I/O, Batterygrip, etc adds up pretty quick.
HKO
Well-known member
I mean if your going to stand beside Arri Alexa, you need to put on your tux and tails and stop hanging around the garage, drinking beer and talking to kids that can't afford your product anyway. ....or I could be wrong.
Well put he he he
For grins I did an estimated budget for a Scarlet 2/3" interchangeable kitted out to match the features of a Sony PMW-350 entry level 2/3" camera package, including the same B4 lens the Sony has. It came out to about the same price, around $19k. But since I don't need most of those features intially and plan to use 16mm PL mount film lenses, I can start out with a functional camera for under $10k.
I like the modularity of the new EPIC/Scarlet system precisely because you don't have to buy stuff you don't need that the other guys build in anyway and charge you for as well as having the flexibility to physically build the camera to suit specific production requirements that would have you adding things like external LCD's , EVF's, lens adapters, or recorders to the Sony or Panasonic cameras anyway.
im surprised as to how much of a following red has.
you would think that after countless delays and price hikes, people would learn... fool me once shame on me, fool me a dozen times....?
and yet there are countless fanboys that continue to wave the red flag
if the company was a person it could be compared to a compulsive liar
every other company that has a release date - sticks to it and at most there maybe a one or two month delay.. with red, the delays are literally years!
i cant help but wonder who is sailing that ship and how many times can you be wrong before people stop believing you
by the time these red cameras come out (2015?), the other companies will have better units and much cheaper
although im sure the fanbuys will still be there kissing ass on the red forums
you would think that after countless delays and price hikes, people would learn... fool me once shame on me, fool me a dozen times....?
and yet there are countless fanboys that continue to wave the red flag
if the company was a person it could be compared to a compulsive liar
every other company that has a release date - sticks to it and at most there maybe a one or two month delay.. with red, the delays are literally years!
i cant help but wonder who is sailing that ship and how many times can you be wrong before people stop believing you
by the time these red cameras come out (2015?), the other companies will have better units and much cheaper
although im sure the fanbuys will still be there kissing ass on the red forums
brian hanson
Active member
RED is still pushing the envelope and democratizing the high end professional market. Lets not forget the Red One has been in existence for years and has an impressive resume. The Epic M is currently for sale if you have $58k and a dying need to have one of the first Epics.
BobbyMurcerFan
Well-known member
This is one of the most way off base things I've read. Other companies delay things for YEARS but you don't know about it b/c they have not told you what they are up to. (Now Red may be telling us their plans ahead of time for marketing purposes, to stay relevant, to remain connected to its customers, b/c its owner exhibits the traits of a manic insomniac, IDK.)
Do you know how many times Apple has delayed anything? No, b/c Apple doesn't tell you what's up their sleeves until right before the show is about to being. But Chevy told us about the Volt, and how long has that been delayed? Apples to oranges? Well how many times do we know of when the Drama camera has been delayed? The Ikonoskop? The Sumix? The Aaton Penelope? The answer is A LOT! Canon's XF's were delayed for a year according to some industry insiders who should know. And running a camera company is not easy. Look at the problems the SI2K has had, and it won the Best Cinematography Academy Award.
You talk as if Red hasn't released something. The Red One is a hard working camera in the industry and an amazing value for what it can do. Red also released a set of prime lens and zooms, monitors, drives and all sorts of brackets and cables and attachments. They also created various apps for dealing with debayering RAW motion camera data. I wish Avid' Media Composer's native color correction tools worked as nicely as RedCine-X.
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Pietro Impagliazzo
Well-known member
Compulsive liars don't make excellent sensors like the Mysterium-X.
'The Social Network' was a great movie filmed with lies! Very clean lies!
John Caballero
Veteran
Exactly. The fact is that it won't be profitable for Red to make low priced cameras. Panasonic, Canon and Sony can do it because of their infrastructure and manufacturing muscle. To be profitable and stay in business Red will have to stick to higher priced cameras. Anybody with a little common sense would understand that. But unfortunately common sense is in short supply these days.
My biggest concern with RED (and i'm a potential customer) is that the bomb EVF has been on back order for a hell of a long time... there are a few other modules on back order too. This does not bode well for the coming launches.
They will have to vastly improve on their production lines and i'm not confident they can match demand with supply.... I'm sure they will release some of their cameras in 2011, but god only knows how long you might be sat on back order... or have a camera, but no accessories.
They sometimes sit and mock Panny/Sony etc for not pushing the boundaries of technology.... but the technology is only one piece of the puzzle. Distribution, after sales service etc can be equally important.
They will have to vastly improve on their production lines and i'm not confident they can match demand with supply.... I'm sure they will release some of their cameras in 2011, but god only knows how long you might be sat on back order... or have a camera, but no accessories.
They sometimes sit and mock Panny/Sony etc for not pushing the boundaries of technology.... but the technology is only one piece of the puzzle. Distribution, after sales service etc can be equally important.
EXACTLY my point.
the professional approach is to be completely sure that you are able to deliver something before you announce it.
other companies don't tell you about it because they don't want to look like unreliable jackasses by not being able to do what they said they would.
this is what RED should do... stop making promises on deadlines and pricepoints that you cant keep....
btw, i never said that they have not or are not capable of producing quality goods either... im saying that you can only cry wolf so many times before people stop believing
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
As long as people keep seeing projects like District 9, Book of Eli, Social Network, The Hobbit, the upcoming Spiderman film, etc.... People will still believe. RED as a company making digital cinema cameras is just fine. RED as a company making a loss-leader camera to get people into the brand cheaply may well be in danger.
Pietro Impagliazzo
Well-known member
Exactly... RED has upped the ante and that means financially as well.
Fixed Scarlet with a 2/3" sensor, constant f2.4 lens and HDRx (!) is an awesome investment for the price... If one can look beyond DOF, he will take great advantage of what the Fixed Scarlet offers.
Not to mention f2.4 in 2/3" is like f4.8 on the GH, when it comes to DOF characteristics, not too bad.
BobbyMurcerFan
Well-known member
My post mentions four cameras that were announced long before they became available. Technical issues, economies collapsing, workers in China jumping off roofs, etc. can get in the way of a schedule. While a fair number of people have certainly been pissed off by Red's delays and price increases, there are also a lot of people who absolutely love the images they are getting out of their Red Ones.
ImpossibleBishop
Member
Yes, there are alot of people who are happy or in love with red. I've shot on it and it's a beautiful image, but c'mon...
The red 1 is nice and all, and the abilities are great, but there are still alot of problems that need to be worked around.
And when it comes to the Scarlet and Epic, this has been rumored and announced so often that at this point it's just annoying. The most annoying part about all the announcements is whenever Janard goes on about all these new features, the fanboys go nuts!
Janard: Guess what, now the Epic is going to have a Scarlet mounted on top for simaltaneous relay recording while it shoots the camera operator's face about how awesome it is.
Fanboy: Wow Jim, you are a god!
Janard: oh and did i mention that the entire thing would be able to record 4:4:4 at 120fps at 30k onto SDHC cards! It's going to capture colors that don't even exsist!
Fanboy: Holy Crap!
Janard: And the entire thing will be available at 4pm tomorrow! For only $19.95!
Cut to: 4:01pm the next day
Janard: Ok, so we're a little late, turns out it's going to be one camera, shoots 2k onto a SSD module which is $4000, the sensors going to be a bunch of Iphone four sensors taped together with Gaffer tape, it might be available sometime in 2030, and it's going to cost $25,000 for the body, and $50,000 for it to actually work.
Fanboy: Jim does it again! Amazing news! I'm so happy I'm going to go punch a kitten!
Long post aside, I'm getting really tired of people holding these vaporware cameras up like the new messiah of indie film. I saw the epic at NAB, it's nice, but until they have some sort of realistic production schedule and delivery of their first shipment, STFU about how amazing it is, when we all know you have no idea what its going to be, how much it'll cost, and whether or not you'll ever be able to hold it in your hands.
Features are great, if you can actually use them, and not just pine like a teenage girl.
As the man said himself:
"We have no idea what we're doing..."
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