Red Raven Official

indiawilds said:
There was one fellow who had the temerity to strip the card and post the images to show that it is just plain rebranded. He was promptly banned. Its been several years so people have forgotten it. Public memory is short...
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Here's the list of all SSD manufacturers. Notice - Red is not on that list. In other words, they buy from someone mentioned below. Their only choice is what they select and chances are they select the top enterprise grade model. And, now those go for around $.50 for a GB (i.e., a 1 TB for around $500). A small mark-up from there is allowed but tripling and quadrupling those prices doesn't seem kosher. (gesundheit)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_solid-state_drive_manufacturers

Yoak said:
... Secondly, how can RED be a global company when their production is based in the US? ...
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Well, they sell their product globally, do they not?

As to what is made in the US and what isn't, I'd like to see that breakdown. (not that I care one way or another)

Edit - some PCI enterprise SSD's go for as high as $5/GB but 550 MB/s card should suddice for most uses.

Samsung 850 1 TB Pro.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=9168777&Sku=SMB-102577335

Sandisc PCI

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5552074&CatId=5303


 
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DLD said:
Here's the list of all SSD manufacturers. Notice - Red is not on that list. In other words, they buy from someone mentioned below. Their only choice is what they select and chances are they select the top enterprise grade model. And, now those go for around $.50 for a GB (i.e., a 1 TB for around $500). A small mark-up from there is allowed but tripling and quadrupling those prices doesn't seem kosher. (gesundheit)
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What a bunch of sniveling BS.

Who are you to determine what a private company charges or marks up any product they sell?

I don't hear the same crap over Apple's profit margins on iPhones.

Malarkey.
 
mcgeedigital said:
What a bunch of sniveling BS.

Who are you to determine what a private company charges or marks up any product they sell?

I don't hear the same crap over Apple's profit margins on iPhones.

Malarkey.
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Apple makes about 300% markup on Iphones, as we know from the tear-downs. Those run about $200, not including the software, and retail for about $600 unprogrammed. This isn't that different from the photo cameras, if one traces the path from manufacturing to retail. Once a service contract is added, the iPhone goes for about $200.

Mind you, Apple puts a lot of R&D funds into the smartphones, as do other manufacturers. Red only - and slightly - tests, then repackages the media it receives from a third party vendor.
 
A company could have a camera that they need to sell for $10,000 to make a decent profit with it. Then they have memory cards which cost them just $100 to produce. Say the average buyer will need five memory cards, so $500, with say, a 200% markup to turn a profit, so they sell them for $200 each, so $1000 total. So $10,000 for the camera and $1000 for memory cards, for $11,000 total.

Now let's say as a marketing strategy, they decide to drop the price of their $10,000 camera to $6,000 to make it seem more affordable, but in order to still turn a decent profit, they then raise their proprietary memory card prices to $1000 each even though that's 10x what it costs them to make them. Now if you need five cards you're spending $5000 on memory and $6,000 on the camera, for $11,000 total.

At the end of the day, you're spending the same amount of money, and the company is just profiting off of different items. I hear all too often people say things like, "The Ursa Mini is a better deal/cheaper than FS7, FS5, C300, C100, etc.," and they don't take into account that the Ursa Mini has more add-ons it needs to work (viewfinder, V-mount batteries & charger, lots of expensive media, etc.), so I'd say the low cost camera pricing may be a good marketing strategy. At least it seems to fool a lot of people talking about cameras on camera forums.
 
Why do some members of this forum argue so hard on the seller's behalf? When buying a house, if your wife were to say to the seller, "Would you take it for $5,000 less?" do you interrupt her and say something like, "Give 'em a break, honey! These people have mouths to feed."

It's all part of the negotiation process. A seller has every right to set whatever price he wants. Likewise a buyer has every right to say that the seller is asking a ridiculous price. And finally the seller has every right to say that buyers are being cheapskates, that the product has hidden costs that you wouldn't imagine but I won't go into the details because that would reveal my exact profit and that's none of your business.
 
combatentropy said:
Why do some members of this forum argue so hard on the seller's behalf? When buying a house, if your wife were to say to the seller, "Would you take it for $5,000 less?" do you interrupt her and say something like, "Give 'em a break, honey! These people have mouths to feed."

It's all part of the negotiation process. A seller has every right to set whatever price he wants. Likewise a buyer has every right to say that the seller is asking a ridiculous price. And finally the seller has every right to say that buyers are being cheapskates, that the product has hidden costs that you wouldn't imagine but I won't go into the details because that would reveal my exact profit and that's none of your business.
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that is because when you buy into the red system you are usually asked to believe and not question that red is the only and exclusive company working their own magic and personally hand polishing each and every product.....each mini mag is hand selected and red builds their own sensors and they upgrade their cameras at NAB.....it's all part of their marketing and amazingly a lot of users would go to war (maybe that is what the names/lingo and design is all about) for red and the red cause....
other people understand that red makes good and valid cameras and if the price to buy into it makes sense, go ahead, if not don't......
arguing how much red gauges on their mini mags is pointless....i actually think they have much higher margins on their screens.....check those prices out!
 
Of course lots of RED talk is very good marketing, but I think the main reason people feel so strongly about RED is that they have a CEO (and previously the founder) communicating with them directly trough REDuser. They can be dismissive of course, but they also actually listens to their customers and their wants and need.
Just today Jarred was willing to consider a new ready to shoot package as lots of users wanted another option.
After the uproar of the Weapon naming, the agreed to make a stealth version without the name engraved for those (like me) who doesn't like the military lingo too much.
That creates a strong community, that quickly (sometimes too quickly) jumps to their defence. I don't see anything wrong with that, but I can see that it looks very fanboi-ish to outsiders.

Oh, and please remember that Jarred (now CEO OF RED) started this very forum to learn about the camera he just bought back in the day, and REDuser is a off shoot of this very site

http://www.fdtimes.com/2015/09/04/jarred-land-pres-of-red/
 
Yoak said:
Fahnon, I don't think you can compare the stress the writing speed of a RED Raven will put on a memory card under, to that of a 5D. You can shoot 120fps for as long as 1TB card would last. It sounds like CF cards would heat up too much amongst other things.
Another thing is the outside construction of the REDMAGS, I mean you can drive a truck over it without it being damaged.

The he last thing that comes to mind is that RED have all their production in the US. This adds considerable cost to everything they do, but I find it admirable that the actually do things this way
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Oh, no, we're talking CFast 2.0 cards here, not old crusty CF. The same ones used in the URSA and C300 mk2. Perfectly fine for 4K.
 
Man, what a wildly embarrassing thread this is. I seriously thought the days of camera wars (incl. the petty, poor arguments for and against) were long over...
 
Yeah, but it's not just RED that people here defend. They speak up for Panasonic, Blackmagic --- just about any seller.

I guess I get how sometimes we sound like spoiled brats, whining for more. But even then I don't get how that is hurting you. Downward pressure is downward pressure. The camera maker can hear and respond. Or they can hear it and not respond, saying, "My profit margins are smaller than you think" (or "My profit margins are quite large, and I like it that way, and I am still getting away with it because my competitors are still stumbling around in the dark.") Or they can not hear us at all, as some say.

But that's not the kind of backlash I'm talking about. I'm talking about reasonable requests. They may be coming from someone who doesn't know everything, but they're still reasonable. Things like this:

"Hmm, SD cards are 50 cents a gigabyte, and Red Minimags are like $5 a gigabyte. I can understand maybe $1 or $2 a gigabyte, but . . . "
"Shut up, you insolent fool!"

"Hmm, Sony has a LCD screen that rotates 360 degrees, but Blackmagic's only rotates 180. I sure wish that the URSA Mini . . . "
"Hush up! You don't know anything about how hard it is to make a 360-degree rotating screen."

"Hmm, Canon C300 has ND filters. But Blackmagic says that it would make the camera too big. Something doesn't add up."
"What do you know! You ask for the moon!"
 
Kegan said:
Man, what a wildly embarrassing thread this is. I seriously thought the days of camera wars (incl. the petty, poor arguments for and against) were long over...
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It will never end and I hope it never does. It creates competition which leads to more options and falling prices. If we only had one camera company in the mix, they'd have a monopoly over everything.
 
Morox said:
It will never end and I hope it never does. It creates competition which leads to more options and falling prices. If we only had one camera company in the mix, they'd have a monopoly over everything.
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There's no such thing as a perfect camera and there never will be. That's a fact - pushing for better technology is fine, but why do you want more options? Are the options out there not good enough for you? There's a camera at almost every price point and if the lowest price point is still too much, that's completely fine. There should be a bit of a barrier to this industry. The level of saturation is crazy and the level of skill is also dropping with entry level prices.

I'm not going argue with anyone but I honestly don't think discussions about camera systems being too expensive help anyone, at any level.

We are entitled to give feedback but we are NOT entitled to tell a camera manufacturer how to run their business and quite frankly, we shouldn't be.
 
Yoak said:
Of course lots of RED talk is very good marketing, but I think the main reason people feel so strongly about RED is that they have a CEO (and previously the founder) communicating with them directly trough REDuser. They can be dismissive of course, but they also actually listens to their customers and their wants and need.
Just today Jarred was willing to consider a new ready to shoot package as lots of users wanted another option.
After the uproar of the Weapon naming, the agreed to make a stealth version without the name engraved for those (like me) who doesn't like the military lingo too much.
That creates a strong community, that quickly (sometimes too quickly) jumps to their defence. I don't see anything wrong with that, but I can see that it looks very fanboi-ish to outsiders.



Oh, and please remember that Jarred (now CEO OF RED) started this very forum to learn about the camera he just bought back in the day, and REDuser is a off shoot of this very site

http://www.fdtimes.com/2015/09/04/jarred-land-pres-of-red/
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SPOT ON! And this whole idea that everyone over at Reduser is just a mindless follower is completely wrong. There are plenty of die hard users who speak up when they feel like something is wrong. And when its done in a constructive way they respond in kind and move on from there. I am no fanboy I want the camera that will do what I want while helping me feed my kids. That being said I see sometimes why some of the people in charge over at RED go off sometimes they legitimately work hard at what they do. They changed the industry and they have to deal with certain things that would make anybody stressed. That being said unfortunately that is the cost of doing business.

And as far as them building things in America they SHOULD be celebrated for that when everyone else outsources and still gets tax breaks. Take Nike for example there shoes outside of Foamposites cost less than 20 bucks to make. But they sale from anywhere between $100 to $250 per pair. Sneaker lovers don't care even when some of the shoes are terrible quality. They buy one or sometimes two pairs to have a backup pair for when there first $200 pair gets worn out. So if RED marks up accessories and you don't like it just think hey it could be worse at least for the most part there products are quality. And don't get me started on Apples inability to make chargers that last longer than a year!
 
& so it goes on & has been for the last 5 years.....the cost of Red Media .

With every new Red camera it happens . It happened with Epic.....Scarlet ......now Raven. For Raven owners I understand the angst but it will not change ( unfortunately ) . So the question is wether to buy into the system or not.

Imo. this cost is like completion bonds, production accountants, insurance, and all those others costs that make this business expensive. It is the cost of doing business and it's up to the individuals business plan or proposed profit margin if they can afford it or not .

After all it is a planned expenditure for a planned business, it is not brought on a whim .......isn't it ?
 
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The choice of cameras are almost too good. You can be unlucky and not buy "the flavour of the month"At least up here. I bought a few, and missed a few times as well. It's a bit of a hit and run. I'm talking about broadcast now, and if you get a camera and producers don't like it, it's hard to rent yourself with gear. The AF100 being on camera that never caught on here, I just about made my money back before I sold it. The EX-3 was a hit and rented a lot. The FS7 seems to be catching on. At least I rent that out quite often. It's not fun to buy into a system that does not catch on. I guess that's also a reason we tend to defend our purchases so intensely. I have been around long enough that I now can afford to own different cameras that suits different jobs. It did take 5 years of working before I could buy my own camera though. People seems to expect to buy a camera right out of college now.
 
In Red's defense I will say this: units sold and operating costs.

Units Sold.
If you sold 100 million units per year, you could mark them up only $1 each and make $100 million per year.
If you sell only 1,000 units per year, you could mark them up $1,000 each and make only $1 million per year.
Which one do you think is closer to Red's sales?

Operating costs.
When I got out of film school I kept naively trying to get a job as full-time employee. Like any production company has a staff! Employees are expensive.
Suppose you are a small company with just 10 employees, and you pay them $100,000 a year, because they're fairly technical.
That's $1 million a year just for 10 employees.
Not to mention benefits, office space, equipment (think of all the vectorscopes and flux capacitors that Red has to buy to test their products).
You're talking millions of dollars per year just to keep the company running.
And you're only source of income are those widgets.
And you're not sure how many you're going to sell.
Will you sell 1,000 or 10,000?
It's hard to say.
But it will make a big difference, won't it?
Your company could actually lose money even if your widgets are marked up 300%.

This is why I don't dare yet start my own company. ;)
 
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