Red Raven Official

I am really surprised suddenly M43 sensor doesn't feel small anymore?

Because that is the nagging point that bugged GH/AF series, now RED is coming up with similar sensor size and it become Super 35 size all of sudden lol.

Though I do feel a M43 mount is much better offer than EF mount.
 
Red actually has a technical reason why they couldn't implement a m43s mount, they wanted to make one (or E-Mount) but the flange distance just can't physically fit the RED electronics design, so they went with the closest popular mount that can fit, an EF-Mount. I take EF vs PL on a camera in the sub 15K market.

The sensor size of 20mm x 10mm and media cost is what really scares me, plus I much, much prefer the ergonomics of an FS7/C300/FS5.

The only way I'd go with it is if it produces a markedly superior image quality to these cameras, I hope we see image quality tests soon not in a year!
 
I've also had 2 CF cards fail within the first 6 months of using them with our 1DC. They were not Sandisk, they were cheaper and therefor tempting. Wish we never fell for that. It left me on location in Tanzania with 2 working 128GB cards instead of 3.
Not fun.
As with most things in life, you get what you pay for
 
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Ebrahim Saadawi said:
Red actually has a technical reason why they couldn't implement a m43s mount, they wanted to make one (or E-Mount) but the flange distance just can't physically fit the RED electronics design, so they went with the closest popular mount that can fit, an EF-Mount. I take EF vs PL on a camera in the sub 15K market.

The sensor size of 20mm x 10mm and media cost is what really scares me, plus I much, much prefer the ergonomics of an FS7/C300/FS5.

The only way I'd go with it is if it produces a markedly superior image quality to these cameras, I hope we see image quality tests soon not in a year!
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Ebrahim, don't forget Ursa Mini under $5,000. The best offer IMO. I also doubt the new camera from RED will beat the BMD offer in any way other than as higher frame rate of 120fps@4K.

E :-)
 
electricjib said:
How do you know how they "should've" been done? Have you ever started up a digital cinema camera company? I fully get your gripes, I really do i've been there before with RED. Especially during the Weapon upgrade reveal. But It's not something I can change. Plenty of operates and rental houses will pay the premium.
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Im glad you get where I'm coming from. I don't think something being out of your control is a reason to not say you'd rather it be different. My thought is saying something might affect change with those who make these decisions. Look at BMD releasing a m43 BMCC shortly after the EF for example.


electricjib said:
As addressed some are too spoiled. Let me put it for you this way. You're so concerned about having a different module to use on the RED to use different media. You do realize that extra module will cost tangible dollars right? At that point are you not just better off buying what is already offered?
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I'm assuming you're including me in the spoiled section. You really, really wouldn't if you actually knew me personally, and I can't expect you to. As far as a Cfast solution, it doesn't have to be a module, it could be a second model or, if physically possible, an adapter. If it will cost too much then I agree it's a bad idea.


electricjib said:
If you can't afford to buy what RED is offering a different camera might be a better choice because it likely means you'd be bankrupting yourself to buy it which is a terrible way to run a business. RED listens to their customers, however I saw your posts on RU as well and if you ran into a brick wall over there trying to convince RED they need to make their camera differently, your efforts here will probably disappoint you. I would be confident enough to bet that RED has plenty of pre-orders in the pipeline they're not worried about adding CFAST for the 10-20 people wondering where it's at.
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Here is where you lose me. You assume I, and others I presume, are only mentioning this issue because we can't afford it. You assume I'm trying to run a business or need to own a camera to do so. You assume there are only a small amount of people that would respond positively to normally priced media. You also assume that it's a big deal to me to just buy another camera when I decide to upgrade.

How about we discuss the merits of the media pricing and leave all that other stuff out? Again, my one and only question is: what does this media do that it's actually worth so much more than the competition if the competition is just as fast? I think it's a question we will hear over and over because of the relative cost of the body. And I think it's logical if they're asking you to buy their camera. Maybe it really is worth it! I don't know, but on paper it doesn't seem to be. Just want answers and have no skin in this race.

electricjib said:
You can record R3D Raw files and ProRes simultaneously to a 120gb card for $850. How much is it going to cost you to buy a external recorder and media? Just something to think about... Oh yeah. I've had my same red mags for 4 years and have never had an issue. And the things are absolutely bomb proof. I've had mine fall, get stepped on, get wet, get sand in them.. so on so forth. I've had 10 CFast cards for a 1DC and 5D over the years. At some point every single one has failed me or stopped working. Can't say the same for a RED mags.
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Again, on paper Cfast is a little faster than the lower capacity mini-mags. Now, I'm listening if there's something the specs don't say that makes them a better choice. You're the first person I've heard assert that CF/CFast is less than reliable and although my experience with name brand CF has been rock solid over the years (used to be a 7D owner and still use 5d3 pretty often), I'll definitely consider your experience and do some more research before my next buy.

Im still considering the camera (or a Scarlet) my next go-round. Media costs (and it being proprietary) are in the "cons" column for those cameras when compared to the competition and there's lots of it in this price segment.

I'm keeping an open mind but that's where it sits for me until I get more info.
 
here is the thing though the Black magic ursa is almost the same size sensor of the raven and no one seemed to cared about that.
 
Edry said:
here is the thing though the Black magic ursa is almost the same size sensor of the raven and no one seemed to cared about that.
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It's not. It's considerably larger. 25.34mm x 14.25mm (Super35)
The Raven is: 20.48mm x 10.8mm
 
I think that he meant the 4K sensor, not the 4.6K one.

Blackmagic 4.6K:25.34x14.25 mm
Blackmagic 4K:22x11.88 mm
Flat 35:21.95x11.86 mm
Red Raven:20.48x10.8 mm

Also, like I said earlier, most Hollywood films were shot in a format called Flat 35, not Super 35. Super 35 is new.
 
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Visual comparison:

Sensors.png


So the full URSA 4.6k outer frame is S35. But as soon as you feel that 3:1 or 4:1 raw is eating up your memory card and you drop down to ProRes, you'll get the UHD crop—and that's very close to Raven.

I'd say this about Raven's sensor size: you should be aware of it. Horizontal crop is 1,76x du to native 1.9:1 format. It's still a "large" sensor. The fact that it's smaller than S35 can work just as much to your advantage as to your disadvantage.
 
Thanks for the chart Andree and good point about the cropping. Though it's also worth mentioning that if you're going to a 16:9 output from the Raven and don't want letter-boxing, then the crop factor is even closer to m4/3rds.
 
deltoidjohn said:
Thanks for the chart Andree and good point about the cropping. Though it's also worth mentioning that if you're going to a 16:9 output from the Raven and don't want letter-boxing, then the crop factor is even closer to m4/3rds.
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Indeed! It's works both ways… =)

I think it'll be a great format for many types of filming. Of course, when Scarlet gets upgraded its FF sensor will be even more flexible; that's pretty much what I'm looking for next—FF around 15fps for stills, 5k60 S35 and 4k120 like Raven. That would be sweet if it could be had for less than $20k.
 
AndreeOnline said:
... I think it'll be a great format for many types of filming. Of course, when Scarlet gets upgraded its FF sensor will be even more flexible; that's pretty much what I'm looking for next—FF around 15fps for stills, 5k60 S35 and 4k120 like Raven. That would be sweet if it could be had for less than $20k.
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Weapon is FF/Vista Vision, correct? What are the news/rumors/wishes the rest of the lineup?
 
Fahnon, I don't think you can compare the stress the writing speed of a RED Raven will put on a memory card under, to that of a 5D. You can shoot 120fps for as long as 1TB card would last. It sounds like CF cards would heat up too much amongst other things.
Another thing is the outside construction of the REDMAGS, I mean you can drive a truck over it without it being damaged.

The he last thing that comes to mind is that RED have all their production in the US. This adds considerable cost to everything they do, but I find it admirable that the actually do things this way
 
Morox said:
The thing is, are you paying for reliability or just because RED has its branding slapped onto it? I've never had a $20 SD card fail on me over the last 6 years starting with a DSLR. Are these cards designed specifically for RED or are they just repackaged and re-branded SSD's?
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There was one fellow who had the temerity to strip the card and post the images to show that it is just plain rebranded. He was promptly banned. Its been several years so people have forgotten it. Public memory is short.

RED does make obscene profits from accessories. Perhaps a boutique camera company like theirs need those profits. However cost of accessories as a percentage of the camera is massive in RED (RAVEN) vis-a-vis its competition.

We need all the competition so hopefully customers have choice. If several companies die and only a handful remain, then it will be again that near monopolistic situation. Hope AJA can come back with a model with a better sensor.
 
Yoak said:
The he last thing that comes to mind is that RED have all their production in the US. This adds considerable cost to everything they do, but I find it admirable that the actually do things this way
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I don't understand why a Global company has to talk about having its manufacturing in US. I understand that it gives a feel good factor for the US customers. However, for global customers like us, why do we get saddled with your overheads just because some of the customers will feel good?

Normal US people may not know but China owns 1.2237 trillion US dollars worth of US Government securities. After six years, Japan just beat China to become the country with the maximum US Govt securities. Japan owns 1.2244 trillion US dollars of US Govt. securities. In this integrated world economy, no one is insulated. Open up your eyes and rise above the marketing bullshit.
 
indiawilds said:
I don't understand why a Global company has to talk about having its manufacturing in US. I understand that it gives a feel good factor for the US customers. However, for global customers like us, why do we get saddled with your overheads just because some of the customers will feel good?

Normal US people may not know but China owns 1.2237 trillion US dollars worth of US Government securities. After six years, Japan just beat China to become the country with the maximum US Govt securities. Japan owns 1.2244 trillion US dollars of US Govt. securities. In this integrated world economy, no one is insulated. Open up your eyes and rise above the marketing bulls*%t.
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Im aware of that (not the numbers I admit), but I'm not from the US.

What have that got to do with the discussion?
Secondly, how can RED be a global company when their production is based in the US? NoThing wrong in creating jobs in your own country imho.
It's not (just) marketing bullshit if you actually produce stuff in locally.

I don't think anyone thought RED Makes their own memory chips. They use Oxford communication Ltd for their REDMAGS. You don't have to pry one open to see that. Just hand a look in disk utility when you mount the mag
 
Emanuel said:
Ebrahim, don't forget Ursa Mini under $5,000. The best offer IMO. I also doubt the new camera from RED will beat the BMD offer in any way other than as higher frame rate of 120fps@4K.

E :-)
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As someone who likes the URSA Mini have many of you owned BMD products?

Its tough getting hired on real shoots with those cameras. I'm sure they'll make there way in eventually like RED had too. I think they're great cameras if it's personal projects with all the failures and reliability issues they've had. I've gone through 2 myself.

The RED will out of the gate not only have a 4K120 advantage. It will also have reliability, actual shipment in numbers, and a developed and almost house hold name brand developed for work. It would surprise you how many people know what a "RED camera" is.
 
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Fahnon said:
I'm keeping an open mind but that's where it sits for me until I get more info.
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You can keep beating a dead horse until there is nothing left if you want. If I were you i'd PM Brent on RU and get your answer because 3-4 people have already explained it over here. It's not just about speed. How you're not getting that i'm not sure. RED might use other companies products inside their cards. But they apparently toss a ton of them out before making the choice to keep it in there.

They also have WAY smaller margins on sales than a company like Sandisk.

In the end RED literally brought $200,000 dollar HD cameras, and other cinema cameras cost down under $20 grand and shot 4x the resolution. If you think they're totally in this for the $$ then I don't know what to tell you. Obviously they have to make something. You have to look at the bigger picture of shooting and the products you use if you choose to invest in them. It is all dollars and cents but its also about the tool that will give you the most tools in the toolbox. I'd certainly spend a little bit more for the creative freedom I'd get from something like the Raven.
 
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