Red Raven Official

I look at crop factor as a technical term: the relationship of the diagonal of your sensor to the diagonal of full frame. Yes, that means that your favorite sensor may have a crop factor of 1.5. But that still lets you compare sensors. If one sensor's crop factor is 1.5 and another's is 1.87, you know that the second sensor is smaller than the first.

Keeping crop factor related to a standard measurement actually makes discussion easier. If someone says a sensor's crop factor is 1.87, it is 1.87. You don't have to take into account whether it's S354Life talking or FFAllTheWay.
 
mcgeedigital said:
Then why haven't third parties made media for them?

After all it must be so simple, right?
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It's actually very simple to make it proprietary. One just has to add a connection between the camera and the SSD. And, if one wanted to make it super-duper proprietary, you add some software code too. It's not much different from the different lens mounts electronic features. To enable the AF, as an example, one has to reverse engineer the electronic connections and that has to be worth the investment of time and money. With hundreds of millions of the EF mounts out there, the first fully automatic adapters only now begin to trickle out and even those are of dubious quality. In comparison, look at the total number of Red units out and the effort is unlikely to be worth it. Thus, just renting a mag and the reader is far more common.
 
Surf it Mike said:
Don't know with Raven but all current DSMC have a back focus adjustment screw located on the top of the camera. So I would assume same.
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Ohh I know. Haha, it's why I asked. I have to often adjust them for proper 52mm flange depth, as they seem to need it from time to time. Very useful but I was curious as they have nuked some lens mount features on Raven. I assume it will have it, but I wanted to ask.
 
You really don't think they would make cheaper media if they could? That they are just adding a few hundred percent mark up on their media just because they can?
I have never had a problem with media other than micro SD cards from Sandisk (lost clips on a few different occasions from a Gooro 4 black)
CF and SxS has been rock solid over the years. As has my 4 REDMAGS. You could run the REDMAGS over with a car and nothing would happen to them. Try that with a CF card.

When I git the EPIC 4 years ago, my 4* 128 GB REDMAGS cost as much as a shooting ready RAVEN package today. I thought it was insane, but that was the price to pay.
 
The crop is really a big problem for a lot of you it seems. To me it sounds like somewhat of an excuse. I feel like we've become so spoiled with how many choices we have today.

I remember shooting super 16 and not even thinking about "crop factor". The only reason it sounds like an excuse is because really how amazing of a camera this is at the price point. Even at a 11-12k kit.

Honestly I do get some of the gripes. But 90% of them just come off as excuses. No other companies have offered different mounting options for lenses until recently. Specifically on the same body until recently. Now all of a sudden RED finally makes a camera with a fixed mount to get the camera lighter and add flexibility in terms of it's abilities with lens control and lens choices. If you think i'm making this up, look what cine lenses have EF options. Also look up foolcontrol.

People on here make so much of a point of how the camera doesn't make the shooter. But then find every excuse in the book to knock camera's for why they're not good enough for "their work".

In terms of media, Did anyone on here ever have to buy film? P2 Cards for HVX200's? The older Sony SXS cards for EX-1 type cameras? Those costs were all high at the time of release. Sometimes even higher. I remember 8GB P2 cards being over a grand. Now we get 120GB bullet proof mini mags that let you record 2K ProRes and 4K 60FPS at the same time for $850 and people still complain.

Basically my point. We live an fantastic time for being Cine's, DP's and so on. Buy the camera thats best for you and be positive and appreciative for the offerings and choices we have. Back in the day you had the choice of 2-3 cameras in most cases. Now you can get 20 some odd cameras for under 10K that shoot 4K resolution in a range of bit rates, frame rates, DR, codecs... so forth.

The Raven is simply another tool, that I happen to love and will get. If it's not for you find what is. If it meets half your needs and you want a RED find a way to make it happen and work for you. You'll only get better with the challenge.
 
Great post Electricjib. I remember only being able to afford one 16GB SxS card for my Sony EX-3 in the beginning. And one large BP-U battery. Sony was the only one making the batteries back then.
So if you think RED is overpriced, buy a BMD camera and be happy
 
Yoak said:
You really don't think they would make cheaper media if they could? That they are just adding a few hundred percent mark up on their media just because they can?
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I do think that, yes. I think there is a very high mark-up on all of their peripherals.

When most of their clients were high-end, and the cost of the brain was very high as well, it was easier for the cost of the peripherals to disappear in the overall budget. But now they're moving closer to the lower end. It's that that is focussing attention on the cost of the peripherals.

It think having expensive peripherals is part of their business model. That's completely up to them, of course. But I don't buy the line that they cost as much as they do for technical reasons.
 
*****'n about the price of Red media is old as hell (@ least for the last 5 yrs)

Either accept it or move on , it is not going change ....Unfortunately . As others have pointed out prices for Red SSDs have dropped substantially recently. But this is also the price you pay for raw .....a bigger data footprint & shorter record capacity per SSD . Want Cfast go Canon/Sony.

Has anyone costed a Codex Recorder recently?
 
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What is this tone?


We're not allowed to discuss the downsides of this new released camera models vs the competition?


There are plenty and anyone who preorders must be aware of them.


-The price of 5999$ is false, it's 11.000$ to 15.000$ cost (depeneding of your needs)




-The sensor is not s35 size, it's 1.87x crop (1.9x 16:9). AF100 is 19x10mm Raven is 20x10mm size, so it's not s35 (C300/FS7) which is considerably larger, your 50mm is not going to be a 50mm on it, and your DOF is changing, you'll have to adjust and calculate to get your standard s35 aesthetic. This is a fact.




-The media is enormously expensive, 1TB is 4000$, coupled with very high data rates gives the camera a very large extra cost for shooting.




-The lowlight performance of Dragon is significantly lower to the competition, 800 ISO max, it's not going to work as an all-rounder doc camera, for this reason, it needa light.




-It has a locked non interchangeable EF mount, which makes the problem of the smaller sensor even more pronounced. No interchangeable mounts.




-The camera is a very different design, some like it some not, just be aware of it, it's a block. You buy a side 3" panel and joystick and few buttons to change settings for 1750$, you buy an HDMI/SDI/Mic inputs for 1400$, you buy an LCD on top for 1500$ for the old 4'7 and 3000$ for the new 7". You buy a top handle, if you want an integrated EVF it's almost 4000$, plus you buy a the connector shall you need to plug it in for some reason, you buy a battery module to take batteries for 1450$, then the actual battery for 350$ (you'll need plenty) and there's a V-LOCK option as well, you buy a rig to make it shoulder mountable, you buy a side grip to hold it, It's not an all integrated package you can hold with a grip, record to cheap media, shoot at any light, record sound directly, use a 200$ battery for 4 hours, a completely different tool to work with vs the FS7/C300II. Buyers need to be aware of how it operates.




-ProRes is limited to HD/2K if you see it as the selling point, just like the HD/2K ProRes limit of the FS7 with XDCA.


-No XLR inputs, in fact no sound unless you buy an expensive module to get a 3.5mm input, and then an XLR adapter of some sort,


-No internal ND filters.


-No LUT suppprt


These are all existing downsides vs the competition that need to be clear. There are plenty upsides if you list them too it would be a long write, starting from the 4K slowmotion capability and owning a RED-branded camera for your business for a Sony/Canon price, and the very thick codec/colour science you get when shot properly under its needed conditions, the dragon-like DR (excellent, 14ish), full compatibility with cheap and high quality EF lenses in fact better than Canon's own EF mount (very fine iris changes and positive locking mount), it's modular and can go in radically different configurations depends on your needs, for example can all be stripped down just with a battery for a drone, or just held a medium format style camera with the 4.7'' LCD on top, it has a great user interface to change settings quickly with the touch screen. It's a great camera for sure.


I see this as a camera for different types of shoots, this is a camera for features/music videos/studios/controlled environments, while not an option for all the other videography applications such as weddings, events, reality TV, documentary, news, or anything without control and time over the shoot.


It's going to be a hit among low-mid budget filmmakers shooting films for festivals I predict, and for people shooting commercials.
 
I liked your post. It seemed quite well-balanced. However, in the name of technical accuracy, I think you should have said
“your 50mm is not going to have the same field of view as you are used to when using it on a super 35 sensor.”
 
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Yea a 50 is a 50 period. And again in the interest of fairness all the accessories you mention outside of the mags can be had for much cheaper with the 3rd party options. It's okay to point something's out just be fair about it. You don't need the touchscreen or side handle to control the cam. As others have mentioned you can use FoolControl. Also 3rd parties are offering cheaper options to connect a mic or get a video signal out of Raven. The crop factor you mention is from FF it is less when comparing it to S35 so honestly working with EF lenses will be just fine.


One one thing you nailed though is the fact that it is different than a C300 or FS7 because it is a straight up Cinema Camera. You are supp to light it and when you do the pic quality to me is much better than those cameras. Point being for those that read your post who have no experience is that you can get up a running on a Raven for less than 10k just like on the FS7.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
What is this tone?


We're not allowed to discuss the downsides of this new released camera models vs the competition?


There are plenty and anyone who preorders must be aware of them.


-The price of 5999$ is false, it's 11.000$ to 15.000$ cost (depeneding of your needs)




-The sensor is not s35 size, it's 1.87x crop (1.9x 16:9). AF100 is 19x10mm Raven is 20x10mm size, so it's not s35 (C300/FS7) which is considerably larger, your 50mm is not going to be a 50mm on it, and your DOF is changing, you'll have to adjust and calculate to get your standard s35 aesthetic. This is a fact.




-The media is enormously expensive, 1TB is 4000$, coupled with very high data rates gives the camera a very large extra cost for shooting.




-The lowlight performance of Dragon is significantly lower to the competition, 800 ISO max, it's not going to work as an all-rounder doc camera, for this reason, it needa light.




-It has a locked non interchangeable EF mount, which makes the problem of the smaller sensor even more pronounced. No interchangeable mounts.




-The camera is a very different design, some like it some not, just be aware of it, it's a block. You buy a side 3" panel and joystick and few buttons to change settings for 1750$, you buy an HDMI/SDI/Mic inputs for 1400$, you buy an LCD on top for 1500$ for the old 4'7 and 3000$ for the new 7". You buy a top handle, if you want an integrated EVF it's almost 4000$, plus you buy a the connector shall you need to plug it in for some reason, you buy a battery module to take batteries for 1450$, then the actual battery for 350$ (you'll need plenty) and there's a V-LOCK option as well, you buy a rig to make it shoulder mountable, you buy a side grip to hold it, It's not an all integrated package you can hold with a grip, record to cheap media, shoot at any light, record sound directly, use a 200$ battery for 4 hours, a completely different tool to work with vs the FS7/C300II. Buyers need to be aware of how it operates.




-ProRes is limited to HD/2K if you see it as the selling point, just like the HD/2K ProRes limit of the FS7 with XDCA.


-No XLR inputs, in fact no sound unless you buy an expensive module to get a 3.5mm input, and then an XLR adapter of some sort,


-No internal ND filters.


-No LUT suppprt


These are all existing downsides vs the competition that need to be clear. There are plenty upsides if you list them too it would be a long write, starting from the 4K slowmotion capability and owning a RED-branded camera for your business for a Sony/Canon price, and the very thick codec/colour science you get when shot properly under its needed conditions, the dragon-like DR (excellent, 14ish), full compatibility with cheap and high quality EF lenses in fact better than Canon's own EF mount (very fine iris changes and positive locking mount), it's modular and can go in radically different configurations depends on your needs, for example can all be stripped down just with a battery for a drone, or just held a medium format style camera with the 4.7'' LCD on top, it has a great user interface to change settings quickly with the touch screen. It's a great camera for sure.


I see this as a camera for different types of shoots, this is a camera for features/music videos/studios/controlled environments, while not an option for all the other videography applications such as weddings, events, reality TV, documentary, news, or anything without control and time over the shoot.


It's going to be a hit among low-mid budget filmmakers shooting films for festivals I predict, and for people shooting commercials.
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Thank you for saying this. I've never understood the idea that pointing out the downside of an object some company makes is bad. In fact it's kinda the only way to let them know what you don't like so it will change in the future.

Also we should not be comparing the cost of he media to how much we had to pay in the past. It should be compared to the current landscape and the also-not-cheap, faster-on-paper, but very reliable CFast 2 cards sound like a better match for a $6k camera to me. Not sure why we shouldn't say so especially when it may be what stops some of us from buying the camera at all.
 
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Fahnon said:
Also so we should not be comparing the cost of he media to how much we had to pay in the past. It should be compared to the current landscape and the also-not-cheap, faster-on-paper, but very reliable CFast 2 cards sound like a better match for a $6k camera to me. Not sure why we shouldn't say so especially when it may be what stops some of us from buying the camera at all.
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Unless there is a Cfast 2 media module for it then it is a moot point.

The prices on RedMags have also dropped over time, like other media.
 
mcgeedigital said:
Unless there is a Cfast 2 media module for it then it is a moot point.

The prices on RedMags have also dropped over time, like other media.
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I was referring to how things could have or should have been done. It is what it is now, but I for one will need to know what is so much better about the mini-mags to justify the price before investing.

Also if we let them know media costs are holding some of us back, it's possible they'll make just such a module. Everybody wins.
 
Fahnon said:
... Also if we let them know media costs are holding some of us back, it's possible they'll make just such a module. Everybody wins.
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They're a bit up the creek with the accessories because they can still get those prices on the Dragon and the Weapon. I'd speculate they'd rather lose sales on the Raven than discount the storage. Margins on a $6,000 camera can't be that high for them anyway.
 
Fahnon said:
I was referring to how things could have or should have been done. It is what it is now, but I for one will need to know what is so much better about the mini-mags to justify the price before investing.

Also if we let them know media costs are holding some of us back, it's possible they'll make just such a module. Everybody wins.
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How do you know how they "should've" been done? Have you ever started up a digital cinema camera company? I fully get your gripes, I really do i've been there before with RED. Especially during the Weapon upgrade reveal. But It's not something I can change. Plenty of operates and rental houses will pay the premium.

As addressed some are too spoiled. Let me put it for you this way. You're so concerned about having a different module to use on the RED to use different media. You do realize that extra module will cost tangible dollars right? At that point are you not just better off buying what is already offered?

If you can't afford to buy what RED is offering a different camera might be a better choice because it likely means you'd be bankrupting yourself to buy it which is a terrible way to run a business. RED listens to their customers, however I saw your posts on RU as well and if you ran into a brick wall over there trying to convince RED they need to make their camera differently, your efforts here will probably disappoint you. I would be confident enough to bet that RED has plenty of pre-orders in the pipeline they're not worried about adding CFAST for the 10-20 people wondering where it's at.

You can record R3D Raw files and ProRes simultaneously to a 120gb card for $850. How much is it going to cost you to buy a external recorder and media? Just something to think about... Oh yeah. I've had my same red mags for 4 years and have never had an issue. And the things are absolutely bomb proof. I've had mine fall, get stepped on, get wet, get sand in them.. so on so forth. I've had 10 CFast cards for a 1DC and 5D over the years. At some point every single one has failed me or stopped working. Can't say the same for a RED mags.
 
OffHollywood had stuff coming. Wooden Camera has posted some of their accessory options already as well. I'm sure plenty more will be revealed shortly or closer to the launch.
 
But if you haven't had them bombed then you can't really go around claiming they are bomb proof.
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Fair enough. Word it however you like, that said, i've never had anything remotely close in quality or reliability in terms of build or for shooting.
 
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