FS7: Red Raven and FS7

Yup agreed. There's a ton of genuine things that make it not a camera for everybody. I think not least the price of a good 4k raw edit system and storage.

I'm good with the EF mount. My primes have been EF modded plus there's a whole bunch of EF mount CIne lenses out there now. Also I think the foolcontrol focus capabilities on electronic lenses might entice a lot of people. Not me though as I'm a manual lens kinda guy.

Sensor size isn't ideal. I think that's why in my head I'll get the kit and maybe swap the brain out when the scarlet is out.

Sensitivity. Always a tricky one I guess. I got lovely results out of the Scarlet-X at 800. I've seen amazing stuff from the Dragon over 2000, but with a standard OLPF and with the Weapon/DSMC2 boards which offer cleaner compression I'd imagine the ceiling for a 'clean' image would be around 1250/1600. Which is pretty much what I think the FS7 is in CINE-EI mode when it says it is at 2000.

That said, the Raven won't be my low light camera. My experience of Reds is that absolutely love light and the more you feed them the more special they can look.

The flip side is the grungy Knick/Daredevil/Jessica Jones look which also has its place.
 
Grug said:
Footage looks great, just as you'd expect Dragon too. I don't understand the hate/criticisms - it isn't a 'camera test', it's 'sample footage', those are two very different things.

a few things give me pause with Raven:
- EF mount
- Slightly awkward sensor size
- Sensitivity (I don't like pushing Dragon beyond 500 ISO, especially at higher compression ratios, and that requires larger lighting packages)

Those aren't insignificant gripes to contend with, but image quality is nowhere near that list.
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#1 you will see that a lot of Premier lens companies including Angenieux are including EF into their new cinema lenses and i believe this will continue. If you have a killer collection of expensive vintage PL glass, you can afford a more expensive camera IE Alexa/Weapon

#2 you are correct its a weird sensor size, but way better than the original 4k cut they announced

#3 the dragon Native ISO is 800, with the standard OLPF i think ive been seeing reports of shooting at 2000 ISO with no noise so yah
 
I am quite tired of the shaky test camera footage that is poorly graded because whoever is operating the camera just received it and is basically shooting it out of the box. This Raven test footage looks amazing compared to most tests because this team probably had many hours to learn the camera. I still appreciate any tests I can see whether or not the material sucks. If I hate it, I know that is not the way to go if I ever use that camera!

I did a lens test this summer and a ton of people have enjoyed it and I have gotten some great feedback from the comparisons. I even had a few people watch that test and love the lenses I thought were the weakest. Nothing I shot on the test is ground-breaking but when you are doing a test like that, creating something groundbreaking takes more time than it's worth for a simple test. Ideally, I would love to just take my test to a job and be like, ok, now time to shoot the same stuff we just did on a new camera and/or lens. :)

In comparison to the Raven footage, whenever Sony releases a new camera cycle, they add some new flavor of SLOG/Cine EL/Custom setting mixed in with different menu settings that takes hours, even days to figure out. I am still figuring out my FS7 and that can be frustrating at times. I always second guess myself and say, do I have the best settings right now? What about that random detail setting in the menu, is that making my footage too sharp? The list goes on and it's great to have that much control but sometimes can get daunting. On the other hand, the RED is a mechanical box with a sensor, hard drive and a processor. RED is focusing it's efforts on their sensors and offerings in RedCine, like new color sciences. The Sony cameras are geared towards doing more in camera and less on the computer. I have been a big fan of Doug Jensen's scene files for the majority of my quick turnaround 1080p work. I could never recreate those images on the Raven, nor would I want to in that situation. If I need more in the image, like shooting 4K, I am usually spending a great deal of time working with the files in post. The Sony takes unneeded time on the post-production end to focus on other things. For the RED Raven, I have to treat each file similar to the FS7 Cine EL mode shooting 4k. Why would I do this on EVERY shoot when it isn't needed? RED Raven looks amazing at this price point but becomes a bit overkill on my projects. That is why I love the FS7 - it might not be the most cinematic, Hollywood-like sexy image making machine that we all want, but it is the first time I really feel like I can do everything I want with one camera.

I think if you were given the same scene similar to what the Zacuto shootout was awhile back (which now is the best time to do that more than ever) we would start to see these cameras differences becoming less and less. It all comes down to various subjective tastes in what we think is an acceptable image for the scene we are presented. I think a camera is a lot more than just the image and the reason why I choose the FS7 over other cameras is the wide range of options it provides me while shooting.
 
Chris, It was produced completely by the people who work at red everyday, so yes they have experience, but what i take away from that is the people who sell us the red cameras, and take our support calls, ALSO KNOW HOW TO WORK WITH THEM =)
 
you can just record one of the rec709 gammas direct to pro res on the raven for quick handover work.

But yes, Raven is not the swiss army knife camera the FS7 is. That said it's going to be an excellent narrative and doc camera. Pretty much anything where you have more control over the environment.
 
I shot my last short on the RED Dragon and it was a lovely camera. It needs lots of light though! Definitely had a few spots where I was crying inside because I didn't have enough juice to quench the sensor's thirst.

I am really excited RED has designed a camera for the sub-10K price point. All that does is light a fire under everyone else to produce better products. I am definitely considering renting one as soon as it's available.

I'll have to rent the Raven when it comes out and try using some of the different internal gammas. I was very hands off with my time with the Dragon, mostly let my friend operate it since he owned it. I didn't have a chance to dive into the menu system.

Eventually I need to figure out ways to get to my intended end image faster in post production so I can take advantage of better image quality by shooting in Cine El more or even shooting in RAW compressed on RED. Need to become a master in grading.
 
I don't know what you're comparing it to.

I'm not partisan. I sold my Red to buy a Sony. The FS7 is much better for a lot of things and for a lot of people. But outside a camera costing about 7 x this one, I don't know of a better camera for outright IQ.

Unless you're saying those Ursa mini skintones are better?
 
Grug said:
Footage looks great, just as you'd expect Dragon too. I don't understand the hate/criticisms - it isn't a 'camera test', it's 'sample footage', those are two very different things.

a few things give me pause with Raven:
- EF mount
- Slightly awkward sensor size
- Sensitivity (I don't like pushing Dragon beyond 500 ISO, especially at higher compression ratios, and that requires larger lighting packages)

Those aren't insignificant gripes to contend with, but image quality is nowhere near that list.
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Jarred Land just gave a major hint (including pic of camera badge) that Scarlet Weapon is going to announced soon and that's probably going to be priced around an F5 or C300 Mark II. That should fix all these short comings. Shane Hurlbut just reviewed the new Weapon Standard OLPF and rated it at 800 and mentioned that the low light is significantly better than the OLPF of past.

I think Red is doing a good job these days. They listen to the complaints (including pricing) and they address the issues. Sony and Canon certainly don't seem to do that. All I know is since I started dealing with Red, their customer service is so fantastic that it makes me want to buy their cameras just because they are so helpful.

I think for the price, the Raven is killer. The footage looked great. When the FS7 came out, it was a bunch of S#!t footage filmed by people running around the city. Everyone complained. Raven tests are nicely done, and people still complain. Red just can't win.

I totally agree with Grug. That was "Sample Footage" and not a "Camera Test." I'm glad they went with the former.
 
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Yea man I don't get it. I owned BMD Cam's, Sony and Canon and I don't feel partial to any of them. I just don't like people stating opinion for fact and in my opinion that footage was amazing. But I knew it was going to be having worked on Dragons before shooting at 4K. That is why even though I preordered a mini, I don't think I will be picking one up. I am flying with the Raven.
 
Ben Scott said:
So you can't bring yourself to say it looked good? Like not even at all? If that had been shot on a BM camera people would be exploding with excitement.

I don't think anything they put out under the Red banner would make you happy.
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My thoughts exactly.. Not the biggest RED fan but that promo looks better than anything I've seen produced by "the big 3" over the last couple of years. The last promotional film that I can remember being impressed with is Mobius, beautifully shot/directed and really showed what that camera was capable of in the right hands(exactly what a promotional film should be). While having a budget helps, it is certainly not a prerequisite for making something unique and beautiful.

Not sure about the great many, but I prefer to see a camera in the hands of a capable cinematographer vs an average joe any day.

While I believe that bmc cameras are capable of producing beautiful images, most of the mini 4.6k footage I have seen looks atrocious. Beta testing or not, most of the people uploading footage claim to be "stress testing" the camera, but if you have a look at any of their previous work it looks equally stressed(poor). Given the buzz they have around that camera(even with the constant delays) BMC should smarten up if they want to be taken seriously. They are sabotaging themselves by not getting cameras into capable hands.
 
JackCarter said:
http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/12/...-the-upcoming-raven-4-5k-cameras-performance/

Well at least they agree with me on the style of the piece.
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It's Newshooter. Not Master Yoda. :)
 
LeoGrey said:
They are sabotaging themselves by not getting cameras into capable hands.
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1000% this.

The single best advert for any blackmagic camera is this still.

4KWSPui.jpg


Because it shows the camera being used by people at the top of their game who used the camera to create a brilliant chase sequence.
 
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