FS7: Red Raven and FS7

G

Gene Sung

Veteran
So what do you guys think of the Red Raven? Seems pretty impressive. Jarred Land is saying $10,000 (probably more like $12,000 in reality) and it’s ready to shoot (body $6000). I was saving for a Red Weapon, but this is at least $30,000 cheaper.

I’m thinking Raven with RAW workflow for higher end stuff - narrative, music videos, etc; and keeping the FS7 for docs / run and gun. The built in NDs, better low light, far better power consumption and small batteries makes the FS7 a no-brainer for lower budget jobs.

Raven + FS7 seems like an amazing combo.

The biggest loser is the C300 Mark II. For a little more than the C300 Mark II, you can get an FS7 (which with LC709a has just as nice, baked in look as Canon) and a Red Raven. C300 II just makes no sense at this point without a huge price decrease.

Crazy times to be a film maker.
 
With something as good and complete as the FS7 RED have to do better to compete. It's the top line of RED cameras that high end production wants so no reason to get the low end from them. Either one aim to work in the high budget segment and go Arri or RED Epic/Weapon or pick something like the FS7 that'll do for everything else.
 
Red has always been raw workflow oriented. I don't have the time to read the Reduser thread where this camera is being teased out, but my cursory googling doesn't indicate this camera will offer strong compressed codec options. Without compressed codec workflows, it's weak compared to the FS7 for fast turn around work. If you have to get extra modules for things like ProRes support, then the cost of entry is pushed up for those who need that delivery.

The FS7 is capable as a "filmmaker" camera, but it's strength is in it's flexibility to deliver different outputs on any given day.

The Red Raven stands to more directly take aim at Blackmagic and the C300II.

That's what I'd think right now anyways.
 
I think for Indie features the Raven is going to crush it. Red Code is pretty amazing when you have a bit more time, and 4K is plenty for 2K finishes (which is pretty much everything at this point). At this point, the Weapon 6K and 8K is just overkill.

I still think the Raven for RAW workflow and FS7 for run-and-gun. Great compliments, different uses.
 
Canon seems to be getting more and more irrelevant in the game - only way they win here with the Raven is the fixed EF mount it looks like it will have. Saving up for a Weapon seems like the smart choice (I know much easier said then done with the drastic price difference - but rental rates for that would be much higher and in more demand I feel like).

Just out of curiosity, what is steering you away from the FS7 raw? You could get that set up for less than half the price of the Raven when all is said and done.
 
TMHiggins said:
Just out of curiosity, what is steering you away from the FS7 raw? You could get that set up for less than half the price of the Raven when all is said and done.
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FS7 RAW is un-useable IMO. I had the FS700 + 7Q and it's the same as the FS7 + 7Q, uncompressed RAW. I tried it a few times and the file sizes were massive. RedCode is much more efficient than FS7 RAW.

Actually, with the XDCA back and the 7Q which is needed for FS7, you pay more than Raven for a crappy RAW workflow. FS7 is designed for compressed codecs, which it does very well.
 
I don't know. Given their track record I'm skeptical when it comes to RED. Might not be worth the hassle.

That's aside from the fact that I may not want to be associated with the whole death head / paramilitary / fratboy culture.

According to Jarred Land

“ The Raven doesn’t replace Scarlet, It’s a new category in our line up. Raven is a younger, hungrier, more “spirited” member of the RED family with a bit of a chip on his shoulder ready to take on the entire sub-$10k market with images that you will be incredibly proud of.” - Jarred Land
 
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gene_can_sing said:
FS7 RAW is un-useable IMO. I had the FS700 + 7Q and it's the same as the FS7 + 7Q, uncompressed RAW. I tried it a few times and the file sizes were massive. RedCode is much more efficient than FS7 RAW.

Actually, with the XDCA back and the 7Q which is needed for FS7, you pay more than Raven for a crappy RAW workflow. FS7 is designed for compressed codecs, which it does very well.
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Well, Redcode really isn't true RAW. It's Cineform, which is a compressed format with RAW properties.

You need a big box to push around true uncompressed 4k 16bit RAW like you get out of a Sony or ArriRAW.
 
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gene_can_sing said:
FS7 RAW is un-useable IMO. I had the FS700 + 7Q and it's the same as the FS7 + 7Q, uncompressed RAW. I tried it a few times and the file sizes were massive. RedCode is much more efficient than FS7 RAW.

Actually, with the XDCA back and the 7Q which is needed for FS7, you pay more than Raven for a crappy RAW workflow. FS7 is designed for compressed codecs, which it does very well.
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I know this is a technicality, but people do forget that the Sony Raw Recorder does compress, and it's files are 3x smaller than the O7Q+ raw files. So it's a bit more complicated than just FS7 raw being huge. Although, given the price of the Sony raw recorder workflow, I understand why people avoid it.
 
gene_can_sing said:
FS7 RAW is un-useable IMO. I had the FS700 + 7Q and it's the same as the FS7 + 7Q, uncompressed RAW. I tried it a few times and the file sizes were massive. RedCode is much more efficient than FS7 RAW.

Actually, with the XDCA back and the 7Q which is needed for FS7, you pay more than Raven for a crappy RAW workflow. FS7 is designed for compressed codecs, which it does very well.
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Ah, fair enough.

If you already have an FS7 you're looking at a little under $4500 for XDCA & Odyssey 7Q+ with SSD's where as just the Raven brain is 6k plus add ons and a very basic package is probably around 10-12k. That being said if you are looking at a Weapon buying a Raven may not be a bad idea to get into the Red proprietary game.

I guess we find out more Friday when Red is supposed to have their big announcement.
 
Harry Lime said:
I don't know. Given their track record I'm skeptical when it comes to RED. Might not be worth the hassle.

That's aside from the fact that I may not want to be associated with the whole death head / paramilitary / fratboy culture.
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I agree with this. Skulls were cool when I was 15 - skateboarding, taking acid and tripping out to Iron Butterfly and Black Sabbath. But as an adult, skulls and the military branding are pretty silly IMO. But in my market, LA, the Red brand does carry a bit more weight than Sony, which is helpful in getting certain types of jobs
 
gene_can_sing said:
I agree with this. Skulls were cool when I was 15 - skateboarding, taking acid and tripping out to Iron Butterfly and Black Sabbath. But as an adult, skulls and the military branding are pretty silly IMO. But in my market, LA, the Red brand does carry a bit more weight than Sony, which is helpful in getting certain types of jobs
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But Gene, don't get your hopes too high about landing jobs because of the Raven... How many high end jobs do you see requesting a Scarlet? That won't change. The ones that want a RED want an Epic or better (Dragon, Weapon). I don't think those jobs will want the "Scarlet's little brother".
 
jshbckr said:
But Gene, don't get your hopes too high about landing jobs because of the Raven... How many high end jobs do you see requesting a Scarlet? That won't change. The ones that want a RED want an Epic or better (Dragon, Weapon). I don't think those jobs will want the "Scarlet's little brother".
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Totally true on this one Josh. I think I'm looking at the $$ savings too much. Reality might be different.
 
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i sold my epic after getting my FS7 and it was the best thing i ever did....
head to head with epic (at 5K) the FS7 (internal 4K XAVC cine-I) has just about the same real resolution, much better DR but the epic has meatier color, but in the end, one has to shoot so carefully with epic because of DR that being just as careful with the FS7 (and color) one can get the same result, red raw still holds up better in post....low light sony is the clear winner......
file size, battery and ease of post workflow sony is the clear winner.....
dragon improves on epic clearly in terms of DR.....resolution is just about the same....color seems to be improved as well.....

so FS7 vs raven?
raven will be good enough for 4K delivery but i would not consider it a true 4K camera...once you get into higher fps compression will be so high that this really will be a 2K camera....
red claims 16.5 stops DR? dragon is nowhere near....all in all it might pull slightly ahead of the FS7...color will be the strong point and the real reason to get this...
if one wants files to be equally clean (meaning no noise) the dragon (with low light OLPF) is probably 1-2 stops slower then the FS7... DR and iso in REDs specs are completely inflated....
i am honestly surprised about the 6000$ price mostly because it pretty much screws all epic scarlet and dragon scarlet owners.....especially since all accessories for the old style bodies are now worth a lot less.....but that had to happen at some point anyway...
the 6000$ and kit under 10K is a little hopeful, red eats magazines and especially batteries....
the biggest question is the raven internal data rate which is TBD and that can make a huge difference in terms of what that camera will and can do....the other question is when this will actually ship.....ursa mini 4.6 (which is what this is really going up against) should finally be readily available by christmas, next NAB the FS7 is 2 years old, i doubt raven will ship before then...
i bet on a 1000$ price drop on ursa mini 4.6 a week before raven ships:)
the biggest issue red has is that there are 3 seemingly not so old but now outdated cameras in between the raven and dragon......and an almost 30K price difference....
getting from the scarlet MX (gateway drug) to epic more or less doubled the price.....not 5x....
 
gene_can_sing said:
I agree with this. Skulls were cool when I was 15 - skateboarding, taking acid and tripping out to Iron Butterfly and Black Sabbath. But as an adult, skulls and the military branding are pretty silly IMO. But in my market, LA, the Red brand does carry a bit more weight than Sony, which is helpful in getting certain types of jobs
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people are disappointed when you show up with scarlet....especially if they expected a RED:)
 
I think that if it can do 120fps without cropping, Red will have a winner.

One of the main reasons Scarlet is not popular is that even at 60fps, it has a huge crop penalty.

Like I said, I'm not saying this is even competing with the FS7. It's for a completely different market so it's really hard to compare to the FS7.
 
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