Red lenses

Wow that was exciting ...To me its about learning and helping others. Not about being right or wrong. I put in my reservation two days ago. And the glass is the bigest deal cost wise. Its nice to know all my options. We are all in the same boat for the most part. To me we are all valued here
 
For the record,

I think everyone on here is completely wrong, and I am RIGHT.

I'm not sure what we're talking about.. But I'm damn sure I'm right about whatever it is!

There, I feel better.

Jay
:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
I like this thread! To me, the whole concept of a tech community board is to provide a think tank for members to exchange ideas and expertise. If not, we're wasting our time here.

In reading through this thread, I see some good minds in motion - a positive thing indeed.

A couple of observations:

An accessorized RED camera system can be inexpensive, relatively inexpensive, or very expensive, depending on the genre or sub-genre of production you work in. There will be people doing projects who just squeak out a "starter kit", consisting of a RED One camera, RED Drive, two RED internal batteries, a 3-handle or cage system, and a single used S16 prime lens or adapted still photography lens. Probable total system cost = around $23k. They will do a few projects to raise capital and gradually upgrade their system components.

There will be various levels of users with more resources and support that build much larger kits, all the way up to people who build huge RED systems costing several hundred thousand dollars. They will buy what they regularly use, and rent the rest on a per-project basis. Long-form projects with lengthy shooting schedules pose a rental problem, but if you were doing lots of projects, you'd think you would be generating enough funds to readily buy those long-form project accessories.

This entire thread has bypassed the RED ENG-style production possibilities and lens needs. I realize that the bulk of you are cine-oriented, but there is excellent money in rounding out your skill sets and equipment bins to be true convergence shooters. With 1080p, 1080i, and 720p on the RED spec sheet, and 2/3" B4 mount lenses included in the image and lens format matrix, there is a wide universe of ENG-style genres and sub-genres enabled by RED: sports (mobile ENG style and hard-lined), documentaries, reality, news (HD Net & others), high-end corporate, and many more. An ENG-style shooter will want to have a good shoulder brace mount, probably the 3-handle system or cage for creative handheld shots. Lenses? The least expensive route will be a used Canon or Fujinon 18x HD zoom, without a 2x, which you can now find for around $7k if you look hard. You can score a used Century 2x, if you need longer focal length, for about $1,200. It goes up from there. There are various HD zooms in the mid-teens for cost. The new, lightweight Fujinon HA16x6.5 zoom retails for about $25k. When you get to the 22x zooms, with 2x, they can run you as much as $40k.

So, a RED "starter kit" for someone who does a ton of ENG-style shooting, including camera system, shoulder brace, RED Drive, internal batteries, used HD zoom, should be somewhere in the neighborhood of $28k. If you're a convergent shooter, a basic addition might be to simply add in a used S16 zoom, or a used prime, and your combination ENG-style/cine-style "starter kit" might be around $32k.

The main thing is to buy equipment that will generate you revenue. Buy things you need, before things you simply want.

Again - nice thread, and good info for everyone to consider!

I'm heavily into a production schedule on multiple projects, and my time is way limited, so I won't be moderating this forum any more. I always find time to read multiple forums, no matter how busy I am, but moderating takes a lot of time. My first priority is production of my projects.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
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How many new s16 and 35mm cameras are sold globally a year?
A couple of hundreds?
This could give an estimation to how much new glass are needed in front of them.
Now if RED will sell 20,000 cameras a year that will be about 100 times more.
And that will give an estimation of lenses to be bought for them.
With 100 times volumes lens prices will surely drop from traditional cine lens prices and they could maintain the quality level at the same time.
Or what do you think?
 
Ok, your estimation?
2000 a year is still maybe ten times more than film cameras?
It is still possible that if RED is succesfull it will hit the traditional video camera market hard.
 
I just read the thread, and, oh boy, what did I miss!

Honestly, I´m still trying to understand how Gregg and Filmmaker could get into such heated argument saying the same thing! :)

I believe in the used S16mm zoom theory. And I´m considering a RED starter kit to be in the range of 23-25K, just as Gibby, brilliantly put.

That would be good for a magnificent 1080p image, and a very nice 2K. Maybe not 4K, but honestly, if anyone here says he NEEDS 4K right away, well you´re in a different budget range than most of us.

I just wanted to stop spending so much time making plans, and assumptions, without even knowing what the images from the cam will look like, but I can´t. I am just too hooked in the RED legend: I hope it´s for real, but even if it isn´t I´m actually enjoying the ride! :)
 
I won't estimate because it would be a guess. What's the point? I hope RED sells lots of cameras and expands the market. I don't know why it's so important to some people that RED takes market share from other manufacturers. The market is dynamic and is filled with many brilliant people working on many brilliant products. RED's innovations will stimulate others to innovate and vice versa. That's the way of the world. Happily, there is no monopoly on good ideas.
 
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taubkin said:
Honestly, I´m still trying to understand how Gregg and Filmmaker could get into such heated argument saying the same thing! :)
Click to expand...

Heated argument? Nah. We had a little misunderstanding that we resolved like gentlemen.
 
I think that in this thread we are trying to guess what will be the prices for lenses.
The prices will be mostly depending on the volume of the camera sales.
My point is that after RED, we could propably have the best quality-price ratio ever with cine grade lenses.
 
Wow, this thread has really taken off. Cool. I have to admit to being a bit of a glass whore. I loves me some nice glass. My fave is Leica M. Somehow I will get an M mount for my Red. In fact Zeiss is also making lenses in M mount for their Zeiss Ikon rangefinder camera
front.left.jpg

lenses.groupfoto.jpg

And the shorter flange focal distance means the optical formulas can be simpler, smaller and sharper than SLR lenses. I'll still get a PL mount and Nikon mount. I just love the fact that I can use any piece of glass I can find as long as I get a mount.
Here is a Leica M 28mm f2
leic11604_x190.jpg
 
toke lahti said:
I think that in this thread we are trying to guess what will be the prices for lenses.
The prices will be mostly depending on the volume of the camera sales.
My point is that after RED, we could propably have the best quality-price ratio ever with cine grade lenses.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with that.
 
evinsky, yes, the new Zeiss and newish Leica M rangefinder camera lenses are optically extraordinary (measurably better than their SLR counterparts). They're probably the best 35mm still camera lenses for resolution and contrast. They're physically very small so a little difficult to use on a movie camera if you want to gear them up, but not a major issue. The short flange to focal plane distance precludes them from being used on optical reflex cameras, but they may be adaptable to RED. Hopefully Zeiss will develop a broader range of focal lengths, particulary at the wide end.

It should be noted that most of the Zeiss M lenses are f2.8 (probably T2.8) so they're 2-stops slower than the new ZF lenses (for 35mm SLR) which are T1.4.
 
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M-4-EVA (My vanity plate)

M-4-EVA (My vanity plate)

Evin,

I will go half on the tooling of the RED M mount.

I think it would be funny as hell if I could put my summicrons on there.

-Clay

RED 142
 
Great thread, Evin... You must be proud with the boys... And you 2 boss...

filmmaker1977 said:
ok.. do you want a numbers war?.. :D

take this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=488048&postcount=40

«It says that Canon has now produced 30 million EF lenses! 10 million of those lenses were made in just the last 5 years (probably due to the DSLR craze). That's an amazing amount of product and it really tells you something about economies of scale.»

don't you care about this point? i care!

do you want to know other professionals with this point?

besides don (you already know), i can add others like:

Robert Jackson.. this man is working since more than two decades in cinematography.. dealing with PL mount lenses.. he knows what he's talking about.. seriously

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=486357&postcount=7

and so on.. follow the thread..

this was also discussed before among us and the results are here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=58282

besides Tim L Ne, Robert Jackson or donatello, we have supporting this goal people like:

Evin Grant (evinsky here), taubkin, Emanuel, Mathieu Kassovitz.. are you familiar with THESE names?..

it matters.. because we don't want to go back.. and it's relevant to protect what we believe it must happen and Jim Jannard cannot forget..
Click to expand...
Nice synthesis point.

:dankk2: for the quote... Closer and before Mathieu K., well, it couldn't be better... :)

But the question is relevant and earns this interest. I'm afraid there will be a lot of customers following this separate subject. With a $17,500 rate the price of the lenses will be proportional.

As it happens with the Panavision gear where there isn't other business besides the rental one. This is their unique aim. They're partners of the majors. Or even if they are independent producers it works equal. And that's there where the art vs. industry debate sometimes flows. With industry rates like for example the actual cost of the PL mount lenses, who doesn't care to get audiences to support any business plan = will be in trouble. This will have a huge effect on the language adopted. And actually it has been since ever. I would guess that's what it matters for the Cassavetes' generation.

Jim brought a sincere hope among us. The times are changing. The Coppola's prediction of the entire democratization of a medium is on the way. This is what the RED revolution means!

So, it doesn't make sense a lenses price in any way other than as what a different market asks. For the RED spirit sakes. If not, why will Jim be here or at the dvinfo? Or why would Jarred open his doors?

Then, Oakley/RED lenses will be the key. And a 35mm still photography lenses option will be the working title just till their launch. Specially the run & gun RED zoom lens (the 300mm is just the trailer). Steve (Gibby) posted maybe mid-2007. Good sign.


EDIT -- And as far as used lenses is concerned, I've read a lot of others that are thinking the same as me regarding used glass. Perhaps the RED shooter will have a half of a year to test the 35mm SLR via from his/her/their own collection or from a (completely) cheap basis. Adding six months later the affordable purchase of the RED lenses. What road map this is!


Take care people :beer:
 
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Clairmont and Panavision will both machine pretty much any mount you want for any camera as long as you have the $$$. Thats what this community is for though.. if Red doesnt "officially" decide to make a certain adapter ( i doubt they will make one for EVERY lens out there) we can all team together here and order them as a dvxuser group to get a nice group discount.
 
I'd want to deck my RED out into a unit that will at least make me some of the investment back (worst case senario), but my budget is tight to begin with. Would a s16mm zoom be a good general purpose lens for various jobs. I'd then save for the RED zoom for cine work (I understand the primes arguement, but I like the option of an occasional zoom shot).

Where's a good place to get a s16mm zoom (and a good price)? Used is fine.

My other concern is the tapeless system. What do I deliver the footage on? Hard disk? HVX users can probably help me out here.
 
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