Red lenses
- Thread starter evinsky
- Start date
Gopher_Greene
Well-known member
Let us know your test results!
Gibby
Red Savant
evinsky said:
While I tend to agree with that, maybe "whenever practical" would be a better phrase. I think your post is aimed a cine-style productions that seek shallow DOF, rather than ENG-style productions with RED that seek medium to deep DOF. I think the choice of how much of the RED sensor to use should be arrived at by analyzing the aesthetic, ergonomic, and fiscal realities and goals of each particular genre of production that we use RED for.
When you shoot 1080p, 1080i, or 720p on RED using a 2/3” B4 mount or S16 lens you are using that image format size crop of the sensor. DOF will be within the capability and parameters of that sensor crop and the limiting factors of the particular 2/3” B4 or S16 lens you are using. There is a whole universe of production genres (and budgets) where using 1080p, 1080i, and 720p with 2/3” B4 or S16 lenses is the best choice.
Mike the Beginner doesn't need to shoot 35mm, use the whole sensor, or need shallow DOF for his particular genre of programs. As Mike has mentioned, Greg Lowry and myself have given him extensive advice on possible configurations for his RED camera to shoot his mobile, small crew, hand held (shoulder mount) coverage of fishing programs. He has very little need of shallow DOF, and the cost/weight of 35mm is out of the question. In fact, for his genres of programs, he usually needs deep DOF, and occasionally medium DOF. We’ve correctly recommended using either a 2/3” B4 ENG zoom or a S16 zoom with a lightweight gearless follow focus. To streamline his workflow, I’ve recommended he shoot and master in 1080p, which is supported by most NLE’s, and can be easily converted to 1080i, 720p. 576i, or 480i for television airing, with the added benefit that 1080p can also do well should his fishing programs or footage somehow be screened on a large screen. His shows are shot in bright daylight, thus an f5.6 to f11 range on the 2/3” ENG zoom should be easy to achieve, with the resultant deep and medium DOF that he needs for his genre of shows. A well-balanced shoulder brace, with RED, either 2/3” B4 ENG zoom, or a S16 zoom, and in-camera storage in the form of RED Drive or RED Flash is what he needs for his production.
Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
Gibby
Red Savant
Hey braddah Poi Boy - howzit?!
I spent several months each year working as a director and DP in Hawaii from 1985 to 2001 - all islands. It was nationally-airing ESPN and Fox Sports Net programs on alternative sports, adventure travel, and tourism. If I was director and DP for those same genres of programs in Hawaii right now using RED, I'd use S35 (primes and the RED wide zoom) and 35mm photo lenses for many of the "beauty" shots that called for shallow DOF (then scale the footage down to 1080p for the shows), and a shoulder brace setup with a 2/3" B4 mount HD ENG lens or S16 lens with gearless follow focus for the bulk of the 1080p shooting for the shows. I'd use the RED body as a recording unit in a special padded pack, hooked to an Iconix 1080p cube camera for the POV shots. I'd also use RED in a custom aluminum housing, with a 35mm wide-angle photo prime for the in-water action shots.
Versatility, scalability, and utility are the name of the game with RED!
Your imagination, experience level, and attitude will be about the only limits when using RED...
Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
I spent several months each year working as a director and DP in Hawaii from 1985 to 2001 - all islands. It was nationally-airing ESPN and Fox Sports Net programs on alternative sports, adventure travel, and tourism. If I was director and DP for those same genres of programs in Hawaii right now using RED, I'd use S35 (primes and the RED wide zoom) and 35mm photo lenses for many of the "beauty" shots that called for shallow DOF (then scale the footage down to 1080p for the shows), and a shoulder brace setup with a 2/3" B4 mount HD ENG lens or S16 lens with gearless follow focus for the bulk of the 1080p shooting for the shows. I'd use the RED body as a recording unit in a special padded pack, hooked to an Iconix 1080p cube camera for the POV shots. I'd also use RED in a custom aluminum housing, with a 35mm wide-angle photo prime for the in-water action shots.
Versatility, scalability, and utility are the name of the game with RED!
Your imagination, experience level, and attitude will be about the only limits when using RED...
Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
mike the beginner
Well-known member
Thanks once again for that great advice Steve (Gibby).
Thats the great thing about the Red camera not only is it modular in design it's modular in its uses!
I have been looking at alternatives to Red using either 2/3rds or s16mm lenses/sensors. The price and specs as well as resolution/lattitude just don't come close to the Red camera. Sure, if all you do is ENG work or work like me that mostly requires a deeper DOF and you have no interest (at present) in doing other work, you might think Red is not for you. Gibby's comments proves the point that it can work PROVIDED you use the other tools (appropriate lenses) etc to go with that type of filming requirement.
Ok we may have to wait a bit longer for a b4 mount to come from Red. They are real busy just now with the camera and making the Red lenses, which, lets face it, are going to be s35mm lenses. Maybe in a couple of years Red might possibly do a lightweight compact wide s16mm zoom lens at a price relative and consistent with whatever price the s35 wide zoom comes out at? But only if enough ENG style guys ask for it? So far i don't hear much from that type of user going with Red. Where are you lets hear from you.
Look at the current price of the new 2/3rds lenses that canon have brought out they cost $20,000 plus. The cost of a good quality s16mm zoom lens second hand is upwards of $6,000. That is the price you would have to pay with Red or with an alternative to Red.
If Red can come out with a method to enable the electronics to be used on a 2/3rds lens (Gibby mentions the type of connection necessary in this thread somewhere) then it could really open up Red to the ENG crews big style surely. Or as i mention Red could make a s16mm cheap light wide zoom.
The only possible worry that some people have mentioned is the fact that 2/3rds lenses MIGHT/COULD cause problems at their outer ends because the lens is only using a part of the sensor, also that some lenses are made to be used with 3ccd sensors. We will not know that until the Red sensor has been tested using smaller format lenses by either Red themselves or when the Red comes out, others will no doubt check this out.
Although many people acknowledge that Red is brilliant value and fantastically suited to cine style work and shallow DOF work, which it is. It can also be great value for ENG and other uses. Red specs can change at any time. They are listening for sure but i just worry that if no one mentions Red for ENG use and no one speaks for or against Red uses over and above a shallow DOF, then surely it is less likely that Red will bother to come out with smaller format lenses at good value prices. Why put connections on Red to cater for the electronics on some 2/3rds zoom lens if not many people want/ or ask for that connection?
All the cine guys and those seeking a shallow DOF have been thinking planning and coming up with some great suggestions for Red camera. Red have listened and are about to demonstrate that at IBC.
Ther must be many guys currently using smaller format cameras and thinking about branching out and going for other type of work perhaps involving 35mm lens, but worry about the cost. With Red the extra cost might only be the cost of one lens!! or several cheaper 35mm lenses.
The other big plus point with Red is that the extensive learning curve in using the camera is not wasted. With other cameras the hassle time and expertise of having to start AGAIN with another camera in three years time (lets say) is a real negative. Red can gow with you. If like me you have little experience of using manual focus you might buy into Red and find you get on well with it, in which case your options are endless. If i fail and just can't handle Red, then i sell it. Now ask yourself how much do you think you would get for the Red alternative ENG camera if you sold it two years down the line. How much LESS are you likely to loose if you go with Red and sell it two years down the road. You see guys when you look at all the options the positives and the negatives you might just conclude like me (coming from the outside looking in) that buying into Red is a no brainer if you can afford it.
I love Gibbys suggestion with the underwater unit using a wide 35mm photo lens. You see what i mean folks i can use Red for that particular use as well. If i want to film at dusk or early dawn i can stick a cheap wide 35mm photo lens on Red and get footage. In those cicumstances i can live with a shallow DOF and it does not cost a fortune with those lenses for those uses. I love the expected quality and expected bells and whistles to come from the completed Red.
Out there somewhere there is a lens waiting for me, i am coming to get you........soon
Michael
Thats the great thing about the Red camera not only is it modular in design it's modular in its uses!
I have been looking at alternatives to Red using either 2/3rds or s16mm lenses/sensors. The price and specs as well as resolution/lattitude just don't come close to the Red camera. Sure, if all you do is ENG work or work like me that mostly requires a deeper DOF and you have no interest (at present) in doing other work, you might think Red is not for you. Gibby's comments proves the point that it can work PROVIDED you use the other tools (appropriate lenses) etc to go with that type of filming requirement.
Ok we may have to wait a bit longer for a b4 mount to come from Red. They are real busy just now with the camera and making the Red lenses, which, lets face it, are going to be s35mm lenses. Maybe in a couple of years Red might possibly do a lightweight compact wide s16mm zoom lens at a price relative and consistent with whatever price the s35 wide zoom comes out at? But only if enough ENG style guys ask for it? So far i don't hear much from that type of user going with Red. Where are you lets hear from you.
Look at the current price of the new 2/3rds lenses that canon have brought out they cost $20,000 plus. The cost of a good quality s16mm zoom lens second hand is upwards of $6,000. That is the price you would have to pay with Red or with an alternative to Red.
If Red can come out with a method to enable the electronics to be used on a 2/3rds lens (Gibby mentions the type of connection necessary in this thread somewhere) then it could really open up Red to the ENG crews big style surely. Or as i mention Red could make a s16mm cheap light wide zoom.
The only possible worry that some people have mentioned is the fact that 2/3rds lenses MIGHT/COULD cause problems at their outer ends because the lens is only using a part of the sensor, also that some lenses are made to be used with 3ccd sensors. We will not know that until the Red sensor has been tested using smaller format lenses by either Red themselves or when the Red comes out, others will no doubt check this out.
Although many people acknowledge that Red is brilliant value and fantastically suited to cine style work and shallow DOF work, which it is. It can also be great value for ENG and other uses. Red specs can change at any time. They are listening for sure but i just worry that if no one mentions Red for ENG use and no one speaks for or against Red uses over and above a shallow DOF, then surely it is less likely that Red will bother to come out with smaller format lenses at good value prices. Why put connections on Red to cater for the electronics on some 2/3rds zoom lens if not many people want/ or ask for that connection?
All the cine guys and those seeking a shallow DOF have been thinking planning and coming up with some great suggestions for Red camera. Red have listened and are about to demonstrate that at IBC.
Ther must be many guys currently using smaller format cameras and thinking about branching out and going for other type of work perhaps involving 35mm lens, but worry about the cost. With Red the extra cost might only be the cost of one lens!! or several cheaper 35mm lenses.
The other big plus point with Red is that the extensive learning curve in using the camera is not wasted. With other cameras the hassle time and expertise of having to start AGAIN with another camera in three years time (lets say) is a real negative. Red can gow with you. If like me you have little experience of using manual focus you might buy into Red and find you get on well with it, in which case your options are endless. If i fail and just can't handle Red, then i sell it. Now ask yourself how much do you think you would get for the Red alternative ENG camera if you sold it two years down the line. How much LESS are you likely to loose if you go with Red and sell it two years down the road. You see guys when you look at all the options the positives and the negatives you might just conclude like me (coming from the outside looking in) that buying into Red is a no brainer if you can afford it.
I love Gibbys suggestion with the underwater unit using a wide 35mm photo lens. You see what i mean folks i can use Red for that particular use as well. If i want to film at dusk or early dawn i can stick a cheap wide 35mm photo lens on Red and get footage. In those cicumstances i can live with a shallow DOF and it does not cost a fortune with those lenses for those uses. I love the expected quality and expected bells and whistles to come from the completed Red.
Out there somewhere there is a lens waiting for me, i am coming to get you........soon
Michael
"Maybe in a couple of years Red might possibly do a lightweight compact wide s16mm zoom lens at a price relative and consistent with whatever price the s35 wide zoom comes out at? But only if enough ENG style guys ask for it? So far i don't hear much from that type of user going with Red. Where are you lets hear from you."
YES PLEASE!!!!!!!
A lightweight wide s16m lens from RED would be magnificent.
Be assured Mike there are others like you who want an all rounder ENG style zoom which is high quality at a reasonable cost with easy use.
cheers
YES PLEASE!!!!!!!
A lightweight wide s16m lens from RED would be magnificent.
Be assured Mike there are others like you who want an all rounder ENG style zoom which is high quality at a reasonable cost with easy use.
cheers