ProRes RAW

Cary Knoop said:
Right, so that why I have my doubts about using ProRes technology, which uses Y'CrCb internally, applied to raw data.

From Apple's whitepaper:

"Apple ProRes RAW is based on the same principles and underlying technology
as existing ProRes codecs, but is applied to a camera sensor’s pristine raw
image data rather than conventional image pixels. "


It seems they simply mangled raw data into Y'CbCr, use ProRes compression and unmangle it back to raw.
I see many potential issues with that.
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Not all flavors of ProRes are YCrCb. The 4444 formats can use RGB. That quote mentioned nothing about YCbCr. Besides I'm talking about going from YCbCr to raw being impossible. If Apple is recording the raw values which they have to be doing but converting to RGB or YCbCr on the fly that is totally possible and exactly what every other raw format does. Apple just optimized it to do it faster.
 
filmguy123 said:
looks good, personally I just believe a video codec should absolutely be platform agnostic.
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I agree with you buy I gave up that fight a long time ago. At the end of the day what mattered more to me was the format I want to shoot with and use for a solid end to end workflow. ProRes gives me a flawless end to end workflow and that matters a lot more than sticking it to Apple or pretending to save money on a computer. The only thing I hate doing on a Mac is 3D animation but that doesn't make up as much of what I do as it used to.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Not all flavors of ProRes are YCrCb. The 4444 formats can use RGB. That quote mentioned nothing about YCbCr. Besides I'm talking about going from YCbCr to raw being impossible. If Apple is recording the raw values which they have to be doing but converting to RGB or YCbCr on the fly that is totally possible and exactly what every other raw format does. Apple just optimized it to do it faster.
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Y'CrCb or RGB it would not make any difference in the argument.

The argument is about applying existing debayered compression technology to raw data.
 
Cary Knoop said:
The argument is about applying existing debayered compression technology to raw data.
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Is it relevant? Apple's white paper says that in ProRes Raw, there should be few if any compression artifacts. In ProRes Raw HQ, they say they should be extraordinarily difficult to see any artifacts.

If it works, it works. User reports will soon let us know if there's a problem with the implementation.
 
What Apple is saying in a simple way is that it is applying the conceptual compression design of video ProRes to ProRes RAW. It most certainly is not the same thing to a different signal.

I'll post the same thing here that I did on the CML: Y'all can twiddle your thumbs and question if the dress is blue or black, but watch this become a predominant format and a major required deliverable in the next few years.

I think it's great, and it will support RAW from the EVA1 starting Monday.
 
Who said Mitch couldn’t keep a secret?

ProRes RAW is a huge deal that is going to transform our entire workflow and even it doesn’t work for others here it solves all sorts of problems for our team. It’s transformative so there’s little surprise there is so much FUD being shared. I haven’t checked but I imagine there is a even a little fretting over at Reduser.

Mitch is there any chance the EVA1 will have a 12-bit RAW option even if it’s only available at lower resolutions or frame rates?

Thanks!
 
Mitch Gross said:
What Apple is saying in a simple way is that it is applying the conceptual compression design of video ProRes to ProRes RAW. It most certainly is not the same thing to a different signal.

I'll post the same thing here that I did on the CML: Y'all can twiddle your thumbs and question if the dress is blue or black, but watch this become a predominant format and a major required deliverable in the next few years.

I think it's great, and it will support RAW from the EVA1 starting Monday.
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EVA1 -> ProRes RAW on Monday or May release?
 
Gary T said:
Who said Mitch couldn’t keep a secret?

ProRes RAW is a huge deal that is going to transform our entire workflow and even it doesn’t work for others here it solves all sorts of problems for our team. It’s transformative so there’s little surprise there is so much FUD being shared. I haven’t checked but I imagine there is a even a little fretting over at Reduser.

Mitch is there any chance the EVA1 will have a 12-bit RAW option even if it’s only available at lower resolutions or frame rates?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Agreed. This is a massive game changer for raw workflows. Suddenly working with raw is as easy as importing a ProRes file into FCPX with similar insane performance. No other raw workflow will even come close to the ease and simple workflow of ProRes raw in FCPX. With ProRes raw you can even do a multi-cam edit with raw material which is kind of insane if you really think of what that means for post production.

The EVA1 is suddenly a very attractive raw solution for any production. Heck even weddings will be easy to shoot with ProRes raw. Now if we can only get cameras to support the codec directly we may be looking at the defacto future standard for raw. PC users be damned, its time to move on from the cheaper hardware pipe dream and realize at the end of the day the PC actually costs more. For me production is all about the format and what the camera can put into that format. Hardware and software be damned, if the format that is smooth as butter requires a Mac then sign me up. I realized that years ago when I switched to a Mac and never looked back. No matter how many features may have been missing from FCPX at first it didn't matter compared to the sheer performance advantages of a well system optimized format like ProRes and the fact that most cinema cameras and hardware capture devices also captured ProRes.

Its all about the workflow.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Suddenly working with raw is as easy as importing a ProRes file into FCPX with similar insane performance.
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No kidding, you think that suddenly debayering is no longer a performance issue because Apple has ProRes RAW?

It's just another format, you still need the same processing as with other raw formats.
 
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Cary Knoop said:
No kidding, you think that suddenly debayering is no longer a performance issue because Apple has ProRes RAW?

It's must another format, you still need the same processing as with other raw formats.
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Apples claims not mine. Apple is guilty of a lot of stupid stuff but they typically are pretty accurate when they claim a certain performance level and visual quality. They have never been known to lie about those things. Apple also claims their results on the iMac Pro so we don't yet know what that processing power could be on a regular iMac, MBP or lesser Mac. Apple is heavily invested in optimized OpenCL and they likely have a significant edge when it comes to utilizing the software and hardware to its full capability vs Adobe that uses brute processing force to get things done. I'm not knocking Adobe at all but their software is not know for optimized use. They depend on users giving Premiere a crap load of processing hardware to get tasks done.

At the end of the day there is no better optimized system out there than a Mac and FCPX. It may be lacking in some areas for certain people but nobody can claim the combo isn't well optimized.
 
Retrospective said:
EVA1 -> ProRes RAW on Monday or May release?
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The EVA1 has already done its part, it is already outputting a raw signal, you can download the firmware immediately.

As far as ProRes RAW support on an external recorder, well, that's up to the recorder manufacturer. I'm sure we'll hear on Monday as to when it will be available to the public.
 
alaskacameradude said:
Not sure if this is trolling or something but.....really? ProRes is 'killed' in the postproduction world?
And DNxHR is 'the future'?

There sure are a ton of people who disagree with you judging by the number of times I've
been asked for ProRes. And what compressed format does the Alexa shoot to again?

I get it, you are a PC user and don't like Apple. But c'mon now.
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Call me names and try to bully me all you want just because I said something slightly negative about an Apple product (which says more about you). But that doesn't change the fact that the file format of the future will not be one that only functions on a single specific brand of computer.

ProRes is popular now because Apple was a dominate force in the video/film production world not so long ago, but that's not the case anymore. There is no longer any good reason to jump through hoops for ProRes anymore.

BTW Arri Alexa shoots both DNxHD or ProRes, and the new Arri Alexa LF will soon support DNxHR. DNxHR is new, and new scares people, but it offers everything ProRes does and then some on top of being a universal format that works equally as well on both PC and Apple.

Also, FYI, I am very entrenched in the Apple ecosystem. I own an iPhone, Apple Watch, iPad Pro, and a MacBook Pro. But instead of being a blind fanboy, I can easily see that a universal format is FAR more beneficial & future-proof than one that is purposely crippled to only work with a single brand of computer.
 
Bob Loblaw said:
Call me names and try to bully me all you want just because I said something slightly negative about an Apple product (which says more about you). But that doesn't change the fact that the file format of the future will not be one that only functions on a single specific brand of computer.

ProRes is popular now because Apple was a dominate force in the video/film production world not so long ago, but that's not the case anymore. There is no longer any good reason to jump through hoops for ProRes anymore.

BTW Arri Alexa shoots both DNxHD or ProRes, and the new Arri Alexa LF will soon support DNxHR. DNxHR is new, and new scares people, but it offers everything ProRes does and then some on top of being a universal format that works equally as well on both PC and Apple.

Also, FYI, I am very entrenched in the Apple ecosystem. I own an iPhone, Apple Watch, iPad Pro, and a MacBook Pro. But instead of being a blind fanboy, I can easily see that a universal format is FAR more beneficial & future-proof than one that is purposely crippled to only work with a single brand of computer.
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I'm not 'calling names' or 'bullying'. I literally was not sure if you were serious or not, because
you were saying 'ProRes is dead' in postproduction. When ProRes is literally on of the most popular
codecs being used in the postproduction industry. This very comment about ProRes being 'dead' in fact,
comes on a thread introducing *ahem* a NEW version of ProRes (ProRes RAW) which looks like
it will be very, very popular. So, you'll have to forgive me if I was wondering if you were serious....
'dead' codecs are not usually known for introducing new, popular versions of themselves.

I'm NOT necessarily disagreeing with you that a universal format would be better (I actually kind
of agree with what you are saying.) I'm merely commenting on what the world IS not what I would
like it to be. And from what I can see, regardless of comments about ProRes 'dying', it is doing the opposite.
 
Cameras should definitely have both, but you can't really blame Apple. Companies will always do what's best for business.

The end goal for these people on this level will forever be making as much money as possible and most will never be able to do that by playing nice.

If the script and success of the codecs were flipped, I wonder what Microsoft would have done if they developed DNxHR (or the others).
 
Gary T said:
Who said Mitch couldn’t keep a secret?

ProRes RAW is a huge deal that is going to transform our entire workflow and even it doesn’t work for others here it solves all sorts of problems for our team. It’s transformative so there’s little surprise there is so much FUD being shared. I haven’t checked but I imagine there is a even a little fretting over at Reduser.

Mitch is there any chance the EVA1 will have a 12-bit RAW option even if it’s only available at lower resolutions or frame rates?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
You have no idea the secrets I’ve kept.

Yeah, ProRes RAW will be a real godsend for a lot of people. Don’t count on any changes to the EVA1 RAW output, but maybe the engineers could surprise me as well.
 
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